Ryzom

Hi, sfb (Matt ;),

it's nice to see some of the biggest open-source-players on the MMO-scene work together somehow.

Makes me a little bit more feel at home, actually... :)

If it were as easy with the planeshift-people as well... ;-)

Thank you for your activities!

Regards,
Ragnar G.D.

Hey all,

WorldForge (and thus Ryzom Core) have been selected as one of the 20 organizations participating in Google Code-In. Please see our news announcement. We need more ideas and the word passed around to 13-18 year olds who may be interested in working on tasks for our projects.

Thank you!
sfb
/s

ragnar-gd wrote:

it's nice to see some of the biggest open-source-players on the MMO-scene work together somehow.

Makes me a little bit more feel at home, actually... :)

The WorldForge team and I go way back, so that helps. I've found through my years working in open source that friendly competition between projects is beneficial but there's a point where being "enemies" is a bad thing. Fortunately for us WorldForge and Ryzom Core fit into two completely different niches in the open source: WorldForge is trying to build a platform for creating virtual worlds while Ryzom Core is creating a platform for creating thematic sandbox MMORPGs. I think the two divergent goals make us good partners on things like this.

If it were as easy with the planeshift-people as well... ;-)

I'm not sure what you mean by this? PlaneShift is highly participatory in CrystalSpace, are they not?

Thanks,
sfb
/s

I seem to recall we go way back with Ragnar too. :)

Thanks loads for helping out put a good code-in application together sfb. I hope we can both benefit from it. I feel kinda guilty that I wasn't around to contribute more the evening Kai started putting things together.

Al
(WorldForge developer)

sfb

If it were as easy with the planeshift-people as well... ;-)

I'm not sure what you mean by this? PlaneShift is highly participatory in CrystalSpace, are they not?

Their activity is exemplary, without doubt, and their choice of licenses, and their organization, are both awe-inspiring and intelligent. There would be no Planeshift without CrystalSpace, and meanwhile, there would be no big improvements on CrystalSpace without PlaneShift. And that is a very good thing, as it are these synergies, that make the open source scene thrive.

I'm not sure, but i wouldn't be surprised, if the ryzom-staff copied some of PS's schema for their own organizatorial and open-source aspects...

I joined the PS-forums some years ago, as i was mainly interested in how they managed such a huge task.
As long as you did the usual chit-chat, or adored their (impressive) achievements, it seemed as the most helpful and friendly community there is.
But then i saw how some users were flamed by the staff, when hinting at the weak flank of PlaneShift:
Its game-design. It is so lacking, that except for some die-hard oldtimers, new players don't come aboard.
Of course, some people simply were trolls, and others, who still stated the obvious, still were quite impolite.
But some simply said what was true, polite and sometimes even with helpful intentions, and still went dark and crisp from what followed.
And that is a very bad thing, given that everything else is so perfect otherwise.

There are so many professional "free to play" games out there, that being open-source and truly free-to-play isn't a guarantee to get your fair share of players anymore.
And then, what reason is there to run servers without players, even if you can pay for the upkeep?

PlaneShift needs change (and new motivated staff AND players) dearly, and with the momentary "style" of leadership, that may not happen any time soon, if i'm not mistaken. It makes me a bit sad...

I just hope they do the right thing, before their motivation is hit by their churn-rate as well.

This is a bit different with the World-Forge people, to which i feel attached for this very reason, even if i don't contribute (still being member of every of their mailing-lists, visiting their homepage quite often, and lately again run a server for evaluation at home - though only on virtual hardware... eventually Kai would remember from some Linux-day what happened to my server-hardware... :)

ragnar-gd wrote:

I'm not sure, but i wouldn't be surprised, if the ryzom-staff copied some of PS's schema for their own organizatorial and open-source aspects...

I would be surprised. I know that we did not take CS/PS into consideration when discussing and planning open-sourcing Ryzom.

I joined the PS-forums some years ago, as i was mainly interested in how they managed such a huge task.
As long as you did the usual chit-chat, or adored their (impressive) achievements, it seemed as the most helpful and friendly community there is.
But then i saw how some users were flamed by the staff, when hinting at the weak flank of PlaneShift:

The "troll" is always a terrible

Its game-design. It is so lacking, that except for some die-hard oldtimers, new players don't come aboard.
Of course, some people simply were trolls, and others, who still stated the obvious, still were quite impolite.
But some simply said what was true, polite and sometimes even with helpful intentions, and still went dark and crisp from what followed.
And that is a very bad thing, given that everything else is so perfect otherwise.

This is a bit different with the World-Forge people, to which i feel attached for this very reason, even if i don't contribute (still being member of every of their mailing-lists, visiting their homepage quite often, and lately again run a server for evaluation at home - though only on virtual hardware... eventually Kai would remember from some Linux-day what happened to my server-hardware... :)

I cut out a lot of what you said but I think your last paragraph summarizes it all. I've always loved WorldForge's open door policy. It can't hurt to have someone in a channel even if they're just hanging out with people. For one it creates a welcoming atmosphere for new individuals. It also doesn't mean they don't have good ideas or that they're not smart. I've been witness to a number of incidents in WorldForge where a non-contributing lurker saw the frustrations of a coder and give a suggestion that happened to be the solution. Sometimes it's worth it for just that one moment.

There will always be people in your community that you don't want there. Every community has that contingent that drags the rest down. We've had it occasionally over the years (back as far as 2002 in NeL) and we will continue to have it. The key is to deal with the trolls and the "bad seeds" as pleasantly as possible and do your best to shield the rest of the community from their effects. But most of all it is important to not let these people drag you down - there's nothing worse than one of your own being said troll.

I reflect back on a conversation I had recently with a major member of another project. We chuckled about how you always get some green newbie programmer who is going to come in and create the next World of Warcraft "but so much better." I applaud you for your ambition and I'll do my best not to talk trash about you no matter how good or bad you are. Because who knows, maybe you'll succeed in something and that's only better for our project. If you fail at it people will reflect and chuckle themselves about the green newbie programmer trying to bite off more than he can chew. But if you decide to denigrate and railroad them out of your project because you "don't have the time" you're doing your own community a disservice and are illustrating to other new and potentially very talented people what kind of community you have.

That is not the kind of community that people want to be in and that's why I don't want Ryzom Core to be that way. I'm proud of how well all of the IRC chatters and forum posters help the new people work through the complexity of setting up Ryzom Core and getting started with the tools. It's a daunting task not to be met with impatience. Many of these people set it up, play for a few days and leave. But I don't count the time we spent helping them as a loss: we learn more about the quirks of our setup, we helped a potential project or contributor and we sent a positive message about our community. It's the only way you grow.

Sorry for my little psuedo-rant. But you set me up.

sfb
/s

sfb,

Sorry for my little psuedo-rant. But you set me up.

You're welcome! :-)

The open ryzom community has a different focus than the PS community: It is clearly aimed at developers and content creators. With that precondition, the community is closer to WF than to PS (which is not meant as a judgement otherwise). This also limits the audience naturally.

The same way i predict the duration of my own project rather in years than in weeks, the ryzom community will grow very slowly at first: After the first hype (which is already over), only visible successes will draw further attention.
This roots in the insight of the more clever developers and game designers, that an MMORPG - even with the support of an existing engine - has a high (or THE highest) probability of failure long before launch (and the commercial ryzom had its share in that as well, didn't it?).
This is the most complex basic structure of ANY game you can create, with computer or otherwise, AND you need so many talented AND patient comrades to painfully slowly succeed after a long time, AND then the game should be attractive, AND there is so much work that really only people submit if they get paid for it (and rather do it where they DO get paid for it, rather than on an open source project). So many "if"s ...

And then, what happens, if another company makes its more advanced engine open source? For you, the path to obscurity lies just around the corner, dark and forbidding... :(

Call sissyphos a lucky man.... ;-)

If it wasn't for my son, i wouldn't have started this mad task anyway, and even then, my friend and colleagues surly will make comments on my sanity at my back. It's just that i don't care.

But on the other hand: This atmosphere of stubbornly working on something really difficult, the intention to continue even after failure, even if the only thing gained is knowledge you'd rather not have, is infertile soil for trolls... B-)

But now, sfb, i'll stop ranting myself, i'd rather expect we'll meet again someplace nearby on this wiki, my client just stopped compiling and shows me some unwelcome ascii-garbage, and the night is young... Have a good one! :-D