The Atysian Science Forum
 

Hey All! I invite those wonders and those thinkers to share, debate, and disprove the answers to the mysteries of Atys. If you make a theory... please state facts and observations that support the theory. If you want to disprove the theory, do likewise.

Example...

Obervation: Each type of homin has the same basic body pattern and bodily proportions.
~Conclusion: All homins share a common ancestor

Observation: Diffrent types of homins can mate and bear fertile offspring.
~Conclusion: All homins are of the same species

Observation: All homins display distinct physical traits... Example: short stature and large eyes of trykers.

Observation: The various regions of Atys are fairly isolated from one another.

Observation: Varieties of the same species appear all over Atys, such as the Bodoc, disspite the physical barriers between them.
~Conclusion: These species must have been part of a single population that became seperated due to a geographical change.

Theory: All homins descended from a single population, that became seperated at some point in time. Over time, different traits became isolated and became prevalent in the diffrent populations... resulting in the four types of homins we see now...

I invite all to challange my theory.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Hah, Feneris On the Origin of Species! :D

I'm going to go start up a movement now to declare your teachings heresy to Jena and have them banned from all schools. :p

Observation: This offspring however will always be definitely of one type or the other. There are no hybrids.

~Conclusion: There was no single homin population that split into four. If this was the case, then enough intermingling would eventually return all four types into one homogeneous population again, and this is not so. The four types of homins must've been biologically engineered to always remain divided into 4 types.

I challenge the validity of your conclusion! You've not observed that different types of bodocs can mate and bear fertile offspring! The different types of bodoc might not actually be the same species, but completely different species that just happened to end up looking very similar.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Well In fact Feneris is right in some things ;)

Quote: posted by sidusar
Observation: This offspring however will always be definitely of one type or the other. There are no hybrids

Hmm then i wonder where did this come from :D

This is an early image of the game.

I'd say that there actually where hybrids but only a few and unable to reproduce themselves...


Quote:
Originally Posted by fenerismoon
Observation: Diffrent types of homins can mate and bear fertile offspring.
~Conclusion: All homins are of the same species

Here's an abstract from "ye olde lore" (beta)

[ Removed - Boroshi ]

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

<OOC>
Hello Kommisar,

while the excerpt of the old lore is valuable to the discussion, in my opinion, you shouldn't present it here in 'The Saga' section. This is outside knowledge, that now homin should know about - yet.

Cheers
</OOC>

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

This whole thread is OOC, presumably. But yes, it's dubious to post that kind of lore publicly at all (I say this even though I adore "that kind of lore"). It's spoilers.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Why is it considered inappropriate to publish something that was publicly available long time ago?

For the ones not having the privilege to be here in beta it is actually quite nice to see such things without having to search archives, which would certainly be feasible.

The initial post says, that one should mention observations that support a theory and does not state that only ig-observations are allowed. So, dragging old lore here doesn't seem to be against the threads intention in my opinion.

embrel

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Yeah, I saw the initial post as being OOC and so my response was intended. :)

I know the image. That's just the early models of the Fyros and the Zoraï, before the Zoraï masks were written in. Never intended to be hybrids.

The latest word from the powers-that-be on this was:
To have children is possible between homins of two different races, but there will be no interbreeding of the racial physical characteristics, a race will take the step on the other one. So, Matis and Fyros can have children, and they will be of appearance Matis or Fyros.

Well, that would support my theory then: Homins were [ Removed - Boroshi ] to always remain divided into 4 different types, to make sure they'd always be fighting eachother.

Lore as old as this probably isn't canon anymore though. :rolleyes:

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

While this thread is very interesting, I have two points to make:

1 ) The things Komissar posted is not really "beta" lore as it was not publically available at the time of the last open beta or at release; even if it is a true reflection of the original storyline made by the original writer, things evolve and it may or may not be used as the basis of future storyline. Even despite this, posting such things can generally be considered to be "spoiling" and so not suitable for these forums.

2 ) The screenshot posted is from a very early alpha and should not be used as the basis for any IC or OOC conclusions about the races; as far as I'm aware it's simply what Zorai used to look like before someone decided to give them masks :o.


As an aside, if there is enough IC interest in discussions like this, I'm sure something can be arranged with the event teams at some point in the future :cool:

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Oo we have an event team now?

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Seer how much you can suddenly discover by posting forbidden material :D

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

I don't understand how this was a "spoiler". Spoiler is something you will get knowing eventually. But what was posted by Kommisar is something that only veteran players would know.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

The old lore that I have come across fails to mention many things that are now present in the game. It skips over major characters, themes and events that have been added to the Atys mythos. I suspect that as Atys came to life, many of the original ideas were tweaked beyond recognition, new ideas added, old ones removed.

I know if it were me and I were creating a game that I was in part marketing as "What is Atys?", "What is really going on?" "Who is Jena?'" I do not think I would follow previous explanations of the back story that were released to the test players as the game was being developed. I suspect that as Atys is/was being transformed from paper to program many things are changed, that as ideas are implemented in the game, they morph to fit game play, balance, and dynamics.

I think we would be best served when discussing the 'Science of Atys' by using what we know has happened and by what is actually in the game. After all I could find some old posts and make an argument that spires are now in the game.

The lose of the chronicles and the lore sections that use to be on the official site infers to me that the only 'lore' we know for sure that will survive the rebirth is written on the temple walls. We have also seen some indication that what has occurred in the saga forums will remain as history. I am hopeful that the post launch lore will be restored/reworked before subs are renewed.

Back to the central topic: As far as Homins go, it is all in the 'seed'. That little something extra growing in our brains.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

All Temples agree that homin races were created during the founding of Atys. The Kamist lore claims that each race rose separately from seeds in their respective homes. How does your theory explain the hominid races, the Gibbads, Frahar, Cutes and extinct Momos? Are they more evolved than homins?

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

What was posted was never "officially" released (during the time that the game was recognisable as "Ryzom" anyway) - it was supposedly leaked by an unofficial source about a year and a half ago. It's not something that "only veteran players would know", but rather something that no one should know, and it may not even be true :)

That's (hopefully) my last word in this thread.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

While we have no Momos to look at and compare to the Matis, if you look at the Gibbads and my people, the Zorai, you would see some resemblance, as you would when seeing the Tryker and the Cutes and the Frahar and the Fyros. Thus, it stands that we are the evolved form of these primitives. Seeing as how they all have two arms, two legs, stand at least somewhat upright, have only 2 eyes, etc, you can't completely rule out the whole 'they once were one, and now are many' bit. How the races breed true, even if intermixed, is a bit confusing. That part might be due to the 'seed' we have.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Not in character of course.... Curious does the lore specifically state how homin breeding works? I only recall hearing things about the races being seeds, ect. Which can be taken quite literally in a fantasy world.... I mean who is to say homins actually come into contact with one another in the breeding process.

Perhaps homins are quite literally grown from the ground and the only difference between races is where they were planted, aka the the enviormental effects on growth.

Dunno, have never read anything on homin breeding, ryzom is so different, you can't expect homins to breed and share traits like humans. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they do the same thing.

Would explain why races are different, yet similar to the local primitives.

aka zorai born in jungle areas with lots of tree/plant life (minus heavily goo infected areas) and goo influence. Gibbais tend to be found in areas like this too eh? Even the gibbai in matis lands are found in more heavily forested areas. Perhaps Gibbai were once zorai. Yet infected by the Goo's influence changed to a more primal nature, which is what happens with the goo infected stuff I think? They become more violent ect.

Though they were all origionally down in the roots I think? But where they living in seperate areas racially, where they bred in certain ways purposely? Never seen any lore on how homins grow and develop and specifically in what conditions there were born/raised in, to consider those as factors.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

We have a number of Momo candidates actually :)



and also these...



Wouldn't say they look a lot like matis tho...

The Gibbai, the cutes and the Frahar are called "degenerate" homins in fact so that would mean they are the by-product of homin genetic ingeneering, which initially went in 4 directions forming 4 peoples thus the by-products would be kind of similar to those 4 peoples aswell...

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Looks more like desert-style Kami to me.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

It always seemed obvious to me that those were Kami, but come to think of it, there's nothing that confirms that except maybe trailer #10.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Regarding the Momo, a few snippets of info from an official Ring scenario:



Very good point. :) The thought had crossed my mind too, but I think it's just too alien for most people to consider :p

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

You mixed up some facts here.
The Homins originaly lived in the old lands and where driven from them by the great swarm. The Kami/Karavan Alliance during that time led them into underground shelters in the Prime Roots. From there they emerged again to be shown to the New Lands where we now live (read: play our characters).

Some even made it to the New Lands without the time of twilight in the PRs.
Ovlovaks Story, says he guided many homins by the stars from the old lands to the new and thus became famous. (Was readable on the chronicles site)

Those that arrive on Silan now are descendants of the homins that did not make it to the fabled rainbow portals, or whose ancestors fled into the wilds not trusting the divine entities, or fled before the portals were ready.

There are lore stories on how homins grow up. Sadly they got lost with the loss of the chronicles site. A lot of official stories tell of children, so just because we don´t have them inGAme doesn´t mean there aren´t any.
There simply are no models for them, yet.

CU
Acridiel

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

http://www.kami-alliance.info/mirror...les.ryzom.com/

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

You can also use WebArchive.org to view the old lore section of the mainsite.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

i dont see the seed idea so alien ;)

after all what is an egg other than an animal version of the plants seed.

but most of all im glad im not the only wondering the scientific side of atys :)

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Since the planet itself a living thing, always kind of pictured homin babies blooming out of like flower pods lol. :)

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Wow! I never imagined this thread would get some many hits!

Thank you all! You have all raised very good points!

As for the question of the Primative peoples... I believe that they do share a common ancestor with homins. But, they each evolved sperately into the different speices we see today. Also, note that there is less differance between a Fyos, Zorai (Excluding the masks, because they are grafted on,) Tryker, and Matis, than there is between a Gibbai and a Zorai.

I look foreward to your responses!

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Gibbai and Zorai are maybe questionable, but you cannot deny that Fyros and Frahar are very similar. So I'd rather say every "homin + primitive" pair has a common ancestor.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

True... but, there is greater similarity between a fyros and a matis, than there is between a fyros and a farhar,

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

actually frahar basically looks like a wild fyros (male) with a tale, i would drag a helpless fyros male out to the frahar camp and take a screenie for comparison, but havent got the time atm. summary: fyros and frahar share much more than fyros and matis imo: distinctive coloured hair, skintone, skull and facial shape, etc.

as for zoraï: another thing to consider is the tribe of gibbaï in Void, the gibads, have different coloured hair instead of black like their wild brothers, also they have much less of it, so if it can be taken that zoraï and gibbaï at least share a common ancestor then i would say the gibads are closer to the zoraï than the normal wild counterparts

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

The fact that we have Gibbaï (Zoraï degenerates), Cutes (Tryker) and Frahar (Fyros), but no Matis counterpart appears to me as unequivocal proof that Matisian Goo experiments were not solely conducted on plants and enslaved Trykers...

Unless the Momos were that missing link, but they don't look anything like Matis (more like Fyros), and their extinction needs explaining.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Hum, where did you see a Momo ?

Momos were described in a previous event for Halloween (in 2006 ?) and they have a certain ressemblance to Matis.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

Yep, 2006. :) See my earlier screenies for that description.

It would seem from that the Momos were wiped out because they simply wouldn't flee. When homins encroached on their lands, they'd fight them until the last Momo.

Pretend-logic hurts my brain. :rolleyes: I could conclude just as 'unequivocally' that the fact that yelks appear in every ecosystem except the jungle can only mean that yelks are a biological weapon developed by the Zoraï using stolen Karavan technology...

There's nothing in the official lore that even hints at the Matis conducting Goo experiments. They merely screw around with every living being's genetic code. :D (And if they experimented on homins, d'you really think they'd spare their own kind?) None of the civilizations allow Goo research, only some renegade tribes conduct in it.

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

that explains everything! :p

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

True... but no more so than a Gibai and a Zora...

As for the Momos' extinction... it says in the lore that the Matis pushed them into extinction through hunting... (they didn't have to kill every momo, just enough to prevent a population recovery)

Re: The Atysian Science Forum
 

what have you DONE, showing me the way to the archive lore site, now i'll NEVER be able to study because i want to read all the lore again :D