Theorizing : me makign an MMORPG, lets brainstorm

[browserice]

For the past couple of months, I have been getting involved into Virtual Worlds (trying a few and learning about them or others). That interest came from a combination of me noticing my company (where I am doing a contract) getting more and more involved into VW, and also from my hobbying of game MODing (never made a real MOD but touched everything except programing). So I am trying to find out all the VW engines out there to know them and maybe develop my own VW (I was doing one with one of the company's VW engine but quit after getting fed up with all the limitations/problems of it).

I am just telling you this to explain where I am coming from with what I want to debate in this thread. I miss Ryzom. Playing Ryzom was feeding a need I cannot find anywhere now. So since I am checking out VW engines, I was just thinking if one day I could make something like Ryzom. I am not saying I will do it but just brainstorming about a possible design (doing this would keep my brain cells alive as my day to day work is boring to death and I'm always working 12 hours per day).

So I will be replying here with how I see this being done and I want opinions, critics and ideas from every one about those ideas. I would be preferable if all replies would stick to the current discussion as to not mis-lead this thread.

[browserice]

Here are few things I was witting down during my lunch break :

Professions :
-harvester - I prefer harvesting. Farming assumes you are growing something at specific locations as harvesting is more like you pop-up something a-la-Ryzom and extract it.
-hunter
-magician
-crafter (weapons, clothes, armors, builders (houses,stores,stands,...), tools)
-Fighter
-store owner - need suppliers and buyers, does he needs a stand/store ?
-supplier - could buy from hunter, crafter, cook or get it himself
-cook
-messenger
-trainer


definition of a player from a programing point of view (could almost apply for any NPC or MOBs):
- name
- race
- faction (which faction or neutral)
- experience
- profession (2nd profession could be harvester, hunter, magician, cook, crafter)
- skill list
- inventory
- money
- equipped list (what he is wearing)
- health
- stamina
- power (more for magician)
- current level & level progress
- vertue list (needed ?)
- guild (permanent grouping)
- team (temporary grouping)
- PVP (On/Off)
- Quest list
- hungriness (depends on how much physical activities done)
- tiredness (depends on time, race, physical activities)
- speed (depends on race, inventory, equipped, tiredness)
- agility (depends on race, tiredness)
- endurance (depends on race, health, tiredness)
- strength (depends on race, health, tiredness)


any objects from a programing point of view:
- lifetime and current time progress
- level
- creator (if was created by a player)
- amount of current wear/tear it has
- how much of wear/tear it can cause on other objects
- price
- power (affected by wear/tear/lifetime progress)
- dependency (if it needs another object to work/be used for)
- name
- description
- quest item (yes/no/Quest name)
- type of object
- weight

type of equipment :
-shoes
-chest armor
-pant armor
-hands (glove,armor)
-head (hat, armor)
-necklace
-earing
-rings


Location :
- a newbie island: I think this is a great idea
- main lands related to each race: this not common to Ryzom only


Quests :
- one thing I find a bit stupid in MMORPG, quests where you have to go get an object at a very specific place. If someone gets there 20 sec before you , the object is still there for you and if someone gets there 20 sec after you, it is still there for that person. Quests like that don't make sense to me as they do not look real. I prefer getting an object when you kill someone/something that resurects after a while.
- there could be quests like go kill X amount of Y to bring X amount of Z but not too much (maybe on Newbie island only ?) as it would start to look like WOW
- messenger types of quests
- protecting/escorting someone
- group quests
- build/craft/cook something
- should most quests be on newbie island and try to keep mainland as freedom-choice as possible (you can still fight MOBs/NPCs to gain xp/level)


Builders :
- the more builders working together on one project, the bigger the structure will be, the more money needed, the more ingredients needed from suppliers, ...). The idea behind builders is villages or cities could be created for the community and perhaps they would gain from renting/buying it.


p.s.: I'm sorry if the whole thing is somewhat out of order and not structured as I did this on my lunch

[rythaludin]

Intriguing idea and topic, certainly something to get this ryzomless homin off the wall.
You have raised a very important point, to wit: there is a lot out there, but nothing quite like ryzom.. so make it. Which is sad in its truth.. er, or truthfully sad (or which ever way personal preference re-orders that), but avoiding that whole saga and onwards to the point at hand.. an MMORPG.

Before delving in, a few questions..

For professions are you suggesting only a harvester (a-la-ryzom) or a harvester referring to harvester(ryz) and/or farming?

Also, though not quite related, would introducing the concept of professions limit players to chosen professions?
Much of the draw for Ryzom, I can only speak for myself, was the absence of said hard barriers to skills and specialisations. In Ryzom, classes and professions became a natural evolution within the player ranks (whether as a result of socialpolical demands I cannot be certain, but maybe some of the older players could clear that up), this aspect also gave individuals the opportunity to find their own niche in the game rather than being given one on a platter. As a result of this, there was much more of a sense of achievement in reaching your own goals.
Okay, one could argue to just create another toon to fill a role.. but that defeats the point in my mind.
Ryzom showed in practice that even with a bag full of masters an individual will develop some preferential fields. and that hardline castes are not a foregone conclusion in fostering the societal and economic development in the world.

Quests are odd creatures.. for one they are a means to empart the story of the world to players and then also to guide players through initial game training.. silan was a nice example. By the time they degrade into: go to X and kill N of Y and return W to Q, you are into grind central; and one gets the feeling that the sole point of these quests is to try satisfy the need for real substance in the game.. kinda like a bag of crisps and a coke instead of a decent meal. Ending up with a hoard of hyper players running from one pointless quest to another so far beyond any vestige of realism or, at the lest, believability within the nature of the world..
In ryzom it was a bit different, and here I think is why and where it leaves a gaping hole in experiences in other online games since; Quests were, for the most part, only a means to knowledge of the world(which was always somewhat sparse, but it added no end to the intrigue of the world), rather than a means of character progression. This left grinding more to team play oriented gaming, [cunningly/blatantly ommiting the crafting arts here, but bear with me! ], encouraging and fostering the community.. This is an amazing achievement if you think about it, take what everyone really hates doing and make them do it with others (if they want) so they forget about it, brilliant!
In retrospect, it is a strange realisation that ryzom did not seem like a time sink, and that everything since feel like massively singleplayer online rpgs that are grind-tastic... okay, I digress.

In short; I think that envisioning a game is in only part about creating an fantastic world or story (amazing and exemplary is also good enough). But also alot about an environment wherein players are free to develop and progress in whatever manner they wish; and where the community is paramount to the game that fosters and supports it.

Note: If a project of this nature materialised I'd gladly offer to help where need be, but the focus needs to be right.. the game engine is sadly not the first thing you need to decide on. :: Firstly establish, fully, what you want to achieve; Determine a way(s) to realise it; Break the solution into requirements; Then find the right means the end...
I think what you have put down is a good start. Nice going.

Edit : ... hm.. there's lots of reminiscing in this post, heh, sorry..

[kalindra]

One thing I absolutely LOVED about Ryzom in the end was the team harvesting. I have never seen such thing "careplanning" in any other game, yet it was a fun way to have lowbie harvesters gain quick XP while experienced harvesters could boost their harvesting efficacity while lowering the risk. It is very different from the "click and wait" experience of other games. And you could socialize without risking to die on a "sourcefart" as much as when grinding solo.

I remember the crazy digging parties that I had in the last days of Ryzom's existance. It was a blast.

[browserice]

Well all those ideas I threw in the posts were not brewing for weeks in my heads. I just happened to think them up on my lunch. So probably 75% of all those ideas will be worked at, re-worked and re-re-worked before it takes a descent shape to be worthy of Ryzom.

I haven't played many MMORPG so there are alot of concepts that I am not aware on other games but I have strong feelings about how they are actually using them. Harvesting is one of them. I get the feeling that in the majority of MMORPG out there, it is more like a farmer thing (plant-let_it_grow-pick_it, pick_eatable_items_of_trees_or_found_any_where). I think the ryzom way of havesting is unique. It doesn't restrict you to a specific area. In theory you could just go anywhere an pop it up through the ground. I like the Ryzom harvesting way. It doesn't follow the was_here-will_be_here-will_always_be_here type of item. Also, like Kalindra pointed out, you could harvest in group to help gain XP.

The helping thrive is in my opinion, missing from just about all those MMORPG out there. So trying to find a way to encourage helping out is crucial, if not, the ultimate goal. This should be found in professions and quests. But it is a hard thing to do. How can you encourage people to help each others. My list of professions was my first try at this concept. It is a very basic idea. Ideas evolve and in their conception path, they sometimes change form. Could it be that the main attraction of Ryzom to all players was the 'helping out' factor ?

Ryzom was my first MMO that I have played so far. I am currently trying out LOTRO and so far, I have seen that professions do need a bit of helping out but the most used solution is to create an Alt character with the required profession to supply you with the missing items. That isn't helping out at all ! Its just me-myself-and-I. I rarely saw any helping-out times in LOTRO but in Ryzom, there were alot.

The second thing I found in Ryzom was the feeling of total freedom. This also has to be reflected in professions and quests. That is the second hardest thing to do.

So the main 2 concepts to achieve in creating an MMORPG a-la-Ryzom, in my opinion, is to achieve the Helping-Out factor and to give the sense of total freedom of choice. Succeeding this will attract back Ryzom players. WOW grinders or the likes will probably not be interested into this.

Another concept that I was thinking of is to introduce a bit of purpose into the MOBs, NPCs to make it a bit more real-life-like. This could be perhaps in the form of behaviors to achieve certain purposes, quests-like concepts and teaming up thinking. I hate hitting a dumb MOB/NPC who is just standing there doing nothing until I hit it AND seeing another one standing 2 feet away doing nothing, but standing.

One last thing, I agree that the choice of the engine is not really important at this time. But at least, it has to allow huge amounts of players. I have something in mind that I have recently discovered but I am afraid about its actual performance. I'll have to prototype to see how it goes.

Do you guys understand the concepts I am trying to isolate and trying to give them form through the functionalities of an ideal MMORPG game ?

My main problem in all this related to the feasibility of me actually doing it is the little time I have outside work. I have sooooo many things/projets I want to do but have soooo little time.

[rythaludin]

I think that I understand the core MMORPG aspects that you have isolated here. And for a good part they encapsulate some of the essence of Ryzom that has left other games a bit bland, post experience.

You noted "purpose into the MOBs, NPCs", this was actually a selling point of Ryzom as a 'living world': Some MOBs were seasonal, others would move between areas; predators would hunt; social creatures swamping and eating your toon alive... heh
All adding to the depth of the world. All however within predefined radii/zones and and time frames..

From a development perspective there is nothing here that is really new, just the arrangement of parts that have already been done somewhere and somehow. Not suggesting that there is any diminishing of potential work required, rather saying that is doable... and if done right, can come to fruition. I would surmise that there are a lot of people out there who would like to see something of Ryzom's nature re-appear; being one, I'd gladly offer dev time.

[chibiarc]

Sorry just couldn't resist! xD

http://xkcd.com/244/

[arfindel]

One important thing is combinations possible of professions. Lotro has a nice idea implementeing traits. At level X you get a new trait. You buy it. But to make use of it you have to equip it. Now the creativity of the player comes from the combination of traits equipped in acertain situation because there's a huge list of possible traits and only say 5 slots to equip them.

Traits can be a mixture of grind (kill 500000 frogs), of quests completion or of exploration (you have found all the 50 POIs in an area).

SWG had a different way of combining. You coudl only have 2 masters in 2 proffessions and a third about half way. Instead the advancement to a master was easier. So you kept levelling untill you found a combo you enjoyed and identified with it or bought second, third characters etc.

A marketing idea is limit all skills in same box. What I mean: allow only 2 or only 5 masters whatever they are: dancer, fisherman, tailor or brawler. This will encourage players to create specialised characters and it's also pretty true to life. Don't imagine an accomplished sorcerer with all 4-10 (name it) masters in magic arts taken who also is a star at playing piano, dancing step and fishing. For the game economics it is also good.

Make cathegories depend on each other. Not only crafting. An ancient greek belief was that warriors were mad at seeing so much human blood during wars so when they got back home they needed to be surrounded by specialised women to become human again. Give role players some importance in game economy, let them be useful to fighters, it helps both the game community and the market of the game.

Never ever give any ready made object as reward for a quest. This destroys forever the game economy. Rewards should be always materials and in some special cases schematics.
That's maybe the most important failure I've seen in all 10 years of gaming.

Want people be crazy about game economy? Invest in it from the begining. It starts with the humble email system. It seems nothing hard, but I've seem too many splendid games with stupid primitive email system. Make it hot, make it modern, connect it to a private vendor and auction system. There are people who won't sleep many nights to win their beloved sword in an auction. And you'll have a huge mass of people who won't play any MMO at all spending weeks to decorat their shops and vendors, cretaing customers catalogues and sending thank you emails or just newsletters with their products and their stats. Make it sturdy. Money dupe has to happen only once to destroy all your work and create a wave of inflation nobody can control anymore.

Give crafters the opportunity to make a difference. All crafting systems should allow creativity. Allow people create unique items. If everybody makes the same stuff why bother to make it in the first place? Hire a mathematician! First you need complex combinatory systems to allow crafters work their brains out to improve, secondly create aleatory systems (everybody loves lottery), but not both in same stuff. SOmebody who worked too hard to get his special mats can drop the game if he loses the lottery, it happened before in Ryzom. Hire a mathematician! He should run simulations to check what happens if players get hands of best ever possible mats and create things out of them, see if economics can be kept stable in this situation. Hire a mathematician! (did is mention hire a mathematician before?) He should check to see how pvp works if people create the upper end dodge or parry suits.

Fashion brings you customers. There is a slice of crafter market who don't care about stats on their products, they enjoy to create beautiful things. They are few, but their admirers are many and their work creates by itself events in the community. A great idea in SWG was that objects were by design part of environment. Example: you found a spider web in your hunt? you can come home, drop it in the right corner and decorate your home with a visible spider web. You wanted to create a curtain? Ok hire a tailor, order 6 lady purple skirts, drop them on the floor with a little imagination or hang them on a wall and ... voila.. you have a beautiful purple curtain in your home.

Isolate pvp from the rest... but not explicitedly. Games that have pvp all over are avoided by a majority of the Ryzom-like market. Games where pvp is completely isolated like LotrO have little to no pvp. Solution? Isolate pvp culturally. Allow all to have pvp everywhere (if they desire so only) but create what I call cultural arenas. Cities where there are constant squirmishes, state it in the story, people will follow. Only seldom they will pvp anywhere else.

Conceive from the begining player housing. Player housing connects the players to the game like nothing else. Somebody who invested hours of his life to build and decorate his house(s) is less likely to leave even if he has just got stuck (as it will happen anyway) in an annoying bug. Allow place for expansion. Communities grow up much better if you allow small communities like guilds and factions to work for same target. Big guild houses, player cities, faction citadels have a huge importance if it's not just the richest crafter who buys them but the whole guild, group of friends or faction working hard for months to create them. never underestimate the home need of human mind. Such places are in player minds as much a home as their own real estate.

There is a difficult balance between freedom and a fascist approach to this that should be handled with care. I have again 2 opposite examples: SWG had complete freedom. You go in a desert where the dunes look welcoming you, you build your house, or your city. The feeling is great but soon you cannot visit any oasis or nice place without a huge number of player houses cluttering the scenery. LotrO is on the fascist side. All cities are instantiated, you cannot build your own home just buy an existing one. No possibility to create a guild town, or group of friendly guilds, even inside the house any object you want to place (from a small list) should get to a clearly defined slot. Between these extremes you should find a way to define areas where people can build and maintain community functions alive.

Can come with more ideas, that's what very fast came to my mind.

[dracolych49]

I have found a game that is in Java that is similar, but unfortunately, it is too much for my computer to handle. It looks like, before I had to quit due to my computer being too slow, it suffers from the whole people being able to literally build where ever they want.

It's http://www.wurmonline.com/.

[katriell]

Wurm runs better on Linux than on Windows.

Having played Wurm for several months, I have some things to say about it:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/katriell...t-of-sandboxes
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