[DEV] - In Development-Section Updated, Aug 24th

[lawrence]

Nevrax has just updated the "In Development" Section with new propositions for upcoming game balance improvements. Head on over to http://www.ryzom.com/?page=news&id=1028 to review the full article and the list of changes.

Feedback appreciated!

[kibsword]

I hate to be the first one to speak on something like this, but it looks good to me *hides*

[b00ster1]

It also resulted in very long fights between melee warriors

Very long? Comparing with Elementals duels (2 - 3 casts) - maybe melee duel is "very" long, but actually duels (except daggers/range) are too short, and no time to use all stanzas/actions, like Opening after Feint and etc...
Pikemans/with Pikemans duels even shorter, unabsorbed by armour damge (Ignore armour [100%]) = very short duel, even stamina used only partially using max Stam/HP credits (2H).
But if fight supposed to be like Elems (~5-10 sec, without using auras), then yes, 30-60 sec for melee duel is too long...

Actually duels are way too quick, and no time to use strategy and etc, just use max stanzas.
Only difference is - or higher Accurate or higher Increase (not many combinations, even adding Bleeding (for Slash)/Ignore (for Pierce) instead of Acc or Inc), because in difference from elemental magic - fighters are'nt getting "-250" HP credit at lvl 250.

IMO Duels should be much longer, where strategy involved and stanzas used are not limited only by "Use as high stanzas, as "fit" in Action"

9. Increasing double spell's casting time by 2 seconds [Deleted]
Following-up on your feedback and internal tests, we have decided to not include this change.

This was way, to force players to use single missiles instead of "all time nuking, using double", cuz over same time period - single missile would be more effective, but now, if only 20% more spell cost, but same spell cast time - this sounds like "instead of 'Poison 6/Poison 6', nuke nonstop with 'Poison 6/Poison 5' (very significant change.. instead of 3000, you'll be nuking 2850)
Elemetalist now killing Horrific Cuttler/Jugula in 2, Great Cuttler/Jugula in 3 shots. Mob dead before reach caster...
Elementalist killing mob before mob reach elem.
Melee fighter taunt mob and fighting while mob hitting.
This make easy/safe hunt for Elems and longer/dangerous for melee fighters,
2 sec delay between casts - will make impossible for solo Elem "kill mob before it reach you"..
IMO not adding 2 sec delay between casts - is bad idea.
I assume you changed plans due to feedback on forums, but who will want changes, which remove advantage?

For heavy armors, the absorption range would change from 45%-55% to 40%-60%.

IMO to 40%-75%, and "Max vs" from 600 to 900.
This can make melee duels more interesing and strategic, and also melee would be not so defenceless in PvE at higher lvls.
Eg. Great Cuttler lvl 251 hit you ~1200 dmg.
"Top" Armour (75% PF/900 Max vs) absorb 900 dmg.
You using ~150 HP/300 Stam for hit (Inc/Acc) + getting 300 dmg from Cuttler = -450 HP/-300 Stam.

[aylwyne]

I'm fairly dissapointed in the lack of significant change in the absorption rate of armor as well as going back on the change to double missile.

I don't think the revised changes will have much effect towards balancing out the overwhelming advantage that elementalists have in combat.

I think armor absorption values should have been increased quite a bit more to make it so meleers can truly stand their ground with a mob, even if they don't have the great offensive output.

Like many others, I much prefer elemental to melee. For me, it's not so much that I like the skill as that I feel much more productive with that skill than I do with melee. I was looking forward to evening that out a little but I just don't see these changes as being significant enough to do that.

[sehracii]

THe free XP removals was good, but...


Don't make double missiles cost more WITHOUT increased cast time. Either both or just the cast time, but not just the cost. Mages are just going to burn through their credits even FASTER without ANY change to their damage rate. There will just be a lot of POed healers. How does that help??

Also...

· For light armors, the absorption range would change from 5%-15% to 5%-25%.
· For medium armors, the absorption range would change from 20%-30% to 20%-40%.
· For heavy armors, the absorption range would change from 45%-55% to 40%-60%.

Averages of 15 / 30 / 50
I don't like it at all. That makes medium marginally better than light, except with a penalty. And medium was already nerfed without reason. Let me offer a counter proposal:

Light 0-20
(avg 10)
Medium 25-45
(avg 35)
Heavy 50-70
(avg 60)

Also, as the absorption of special attack damage seems to be going to jewels, mages will be on equal footing with melee in that respect. At least give melee a little more bonus in melee absoroption

[aylwyne]

Originally Posted by sehracii

Don't make double missiles cost more WITHOUT increased cast time. Either both or just the cast time, but not just the cost. Mages are just going to burn through their credits even FASTER without ANY change to their damage rate. There will just be a lot of POed healers. How does that help??

Burning through your sap and HP is one of the biggest problems with double missiles and the changes they make will certainly make this worse.

Now of course, the counter argument to this would be, just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you must do that thing. We don't have to create spells using our biggest counterpoints. However, I think it's kind of silly to give us the ability to make these big nukes and not expect us to do just that and expect them to work well.

I think one of the key things that imbalances melee and magic is that a mage is given bigger and more counterpoints quicker than melee. I'm L151 2H melee, elemental, and heal (just did that last night, yay!). I can easily make a double heal or double elemental with my biggest spells and pay for those with no time counterpoints. However, I can't make a melee action using all my highest melee skills (accurate, increase damage, bleed). There's not enough counterpoints available. As a meleer, I have to choose which modifiers to use in the action. They've governed how big of an action a melee fighter can create by limiting the counterpoints they can get.

I feel that counterpoints should have been much slower coming in magic. To me, it would have been better if double missile was more for combining two half powered spells than combining all of your highest level spells. But the only way to make this a reality is to prevent you from being able to combine the highest level spells by limiting counterpoints.

[sehracii]

Originally Posted by aylwyne

Now of course, the counter argument to this would be, just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you must do that thing. We don't have to create spells using our biggest counterpoints. However, I think it's kind of silly to give us the ability to make these big nukes and not expect us to do just that and expect them to work well.

I wholeheartedly agree with that and everything you said. These changes could work fine if everyone made some sacrifices in their spells with time credits or less powerful actions. But we know that's not going to happen.

The credits should be a smaller so the max attack just isn't possible, that's a good idea.
Edit: Or maybe just only possible with max time and ranged credits as well as HP and sap.

[riveit]

I agree with the alterations made. I would prefer several smaller patches rather than overdoing the balancing in one enormous change. According to what I've read, the massive changes made in patch one drove off the majority of players - no one would want to repeat that mistake!

Originally Posted by aylwyne

Burning through your sap and HP is one of the biggest problems with double missiles and the changes they make will certainly make this worse.

Making it tougher is the point. This challenge will make life harder for mages. Combined with the diminished healing, they will run out of sap and hp faster and have more down time. Mobs will have more opportunity to reach them because they will be waiting to be healed, or healing each other, or they will have to cut back on their stanzas. I don't understand why people want to make even more changes without seeing what the effects of these are first. Unless you are speaking as an ATS tester?

[b00ster1]

I can easily make a double heal or double elemental with my biggest spells and pay for those with no time counterpoints. However, I can't make a melee action using all my highest melee skills (accurate, increase damage, bleed).

At lvl 250, you 're not able to put even Acc and Inc to one action... because you dont getting -250 HP Credit at lvl 250... (but mages getting it !)

Increasing double missile cost (removing last credits) - will force to use timecredits = increased dbl missile cast time.

[sidusar]

Originally Posted by sehracii

Don't make double missiles cost more WITHOUT increased cast time. Either both or just the cast time, but not just the cost. Mages are just going to burn through their credits even FASTER without ANY change to their damage rate.

Don't worry, they won't. Using myself as example, I'm level 168 elemental. My most powerfull double spell is a double poison 3, which costs 2 * 180 = 360 credit. My highest life credit is only 160, and same for my highest sap credit. Which means to use my most powerfull double spell I need to use at least 40 range credit.
Now make that double spell cost 20% more credit, so 72 more. Now the spell will cost 432 credit. I'm already using my highest life AND highest sap credit, and almost my highest range credit (my highest is 50). So the only way I'm going to be able to pay for that extra 20% credit is by putting in time credits.

At level 180, I get improved sap and health credits, both 180. Then I'll be able to pay for a double poison 3 without using range credits. With max health credit, max sap credit and max range credit I will then be able to pay 180 + 180 + 50 = 410 credit. Increase cost by 20%, the spell will cost 432 credit, so still I'll have to put in time credits to pay for it.
At level 185, I get poison 4 which costs 200 credit, before getting any new credits. So never could I pay for my highest double missile in only sap, health and range credits if the cost is increased by 20%.

20% extra credit without extra time won't make mages burn sap and health any faster than they are now. It'll even make them burn it slightly slower because they'll be forced to use time credits.

Update (08-24): Armors' absorption will not be affected by this change. Armors only absorb melee damage. Currently, magical damage is unabsorbed.

If you're trying to balance PvP, in my opinion heavy and medium armor should give additional protection from magic over just light armor and jewelry. Right now the damage a melee can do to you is far, far less than the damage a mage can do to you, so unless heavy armor offers extra protection from magic too, there's very little point in wearing it.

Update (08-24): The values (which could still be tuned), are the following:
For light armors, the absorption range would change from 5%-15% to 5%-25%.
For medium armors, the absorption range would change from 20%-30% to 20%-40%.
For heavy armors, the absorption range would change from 45%-55% to 40%-60%.

This means even less point in wearing medium or heavy armor. Let's take a look at how the averages change: Light; from 10% to 15%. Medium; from 25% to 30%. Heavy; from 50% to 50%. So light armor gets a nice boost (which will make mages more effective against melee) while heavy stays the same on average. Also, for medium armor to have any use it's protection should be halfway inbetween light and heavy, right now it's less and with these changes it will still be less.

If light armor is going to be 5%-25%, then medium armor should be at least 30%-50% and heavy 55%-75%. If that's too high, I propose light armor be 5%-20%, medium 25%-40% and heavy 45%-60%. Though I would prefer the first, specially because heal life is cut in half: We will need that extra protection.

I emphasize however, that most of the time it's not the protection factor that limits how much damage my armor absorbs, but the maximum vs slash/pierce/blunt values. Increasing the protection factors will be useless if these are not also increased, by the same percentage.

Update (08-24): The current values, which will have to be tuned, make heal stamina and heal sap 1.5 times more powerful than the revamped heal life spell (once it has been divided by two).

Let's see, current heal 12 gives 790 health, equivalent sap/stamina gift gives 245 sap/stamina. New system: 395 health, so 590 sap/stamina. So to compensate for halving heal life, heal sap and heal stamina are more than doubled. Sounds good to me.

I always did think it would make more sense if sap and stamina were easier to heal than life, rather than harder like it is now. If sap's easier to restore than health it may encourage mages to use damage-over-time spells more often, since they only consume sap. If stamina's easier to restore than health it should make health credits more equally usefull to stamina credits (Right now they're far superior: a health credit costs only half as much health as the equivalent stam credit costs stamina, and health is easier to heal.)