Can we play too ?

[iphdrunk]

1) If I get mats and it costs me 10 mil to make armor with them at a crafter, is the crafter going to put in their own money to make me my equipment? Or am I going to be forced to pay to use my reward? Is that honestly fair, that I spend 3 days fighting Kitin and have to fork over a ton of my money to use my reward?

99% of the crafters I know are happy to craft if you bring your own mats, for free. At most, a sign of gratitude from your side will keep them happy:

2) If I give the crafter my mats to use to craft something for me, they will get xp from that. Why should someone who didn't do any of the work to get the reward get any benefit from it?

He did the work of levelling the craft branch, that you seem to not care, not bother, not feel like or simply ignore / dismiss. Specially with multi-tree crafts. If you are not happy with that, or if you consider it "not doing any work", then level craft yourself and craft your won gear, you'll see it's rewarding; That without mentioning that we keep on crafting after being lvl 250.. "with no XP";


That said, I am not against alternative means (including rewards) to get gear. I am against those alternative (specially if they are considerably easier) being better in most (or all) aspects than crafted ones.

[rothimar]

Originally Posted by raynes

1) If I get mats and it costs me 10 mil to make armor with them at a crafter, is the crafter going to put in their own money to make me my equipment? Or am I going to be forced to pay to use my reward? Is that honestly fair, that I spend 3 days fighting Kitin and have to fork over a ton of my money to use my reward?

Would it be fair to crafters who would be rendered useless with the introduction of loot rewards? You know, you could always trade the mats for other gear/items. Or come up with an idea for a reward that won't screw other people over.

Originally Posted by raynes

2) If I give the crafter my mats to use to craft something for me, they will get xp from that. Why should someone who didn't do any of the work to get the reward get any benefit from it?

They wouldn't be getting XP from your battles, they would be getting XP for crafting your gear. There is a big difference. Besides, Ryzom is a social game, so I don't understand the problem with this anyway.

[johntf]

And the results are in..

The winner of the most short sighted Homin is Raynes....

Next up will be the catagory biggest selfish whiner who wants it all their own easy way - 2006 YAY

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by raynes

No, I can't use materials. I only have 2-handed melee leveled. So I would have to take the mats to a crafter. Once the crafter has it, they are going to charge me money to make what I need. So to argue that I (or those who did not level crafting) can use mats is wrong. There is no reason why after 200 levels of fighting I should be given something I have to pay someone to make useful to me.

Writing this brought two questions to my mind.

1) If I get mats and it costs me 10 mil to make armor with them at a crafter, is the crafter going to put in their own money to make me my equipment? Or am I going to be forced to pay to use my reward? Is that honestly fair, that I spend 3 days fighting Kitin and have to fork over a ton of my money to use my reward?

2) If I give the crafter my mats to use to craft something for me, they will get xp from that. Why should someone who didn't do any of the work to get the reward get any benefit from it?

I see your frustration, and I understand your point.
Let me give an example....
A kid buys his computer parts mail order and has no idea how to assemble them....He arrives at the local computer shop and asks the engineer there to assemble them.
When he collects his computer he is shocked that he has to actually pay !!.. "But you used my parts!!!".

Of course This is RL and not fantasy.......I am sure the 'character' in Ryzom will understand your logic

[rothimar]

Interestingly enough... a friend of mine did just that... only he didn't bring the parts to a computer shop, be brought them to me. I built his PC for free. He bought me a case of beer as a thanks, but I didn't require that. He was just being nice.

I am sure that there are others in the world like me. *edit* - at least in this capacity... my mom tells me I am a very special boy. lmao

I do understand the point, and I even understand the frustration. But I cannot see undermining the crafters of Atys as a solution to the problem.

Originally Posted by mugendo

I see your frustration, and I understand your point.
Let me give an example....
A kid buys his computer parts mail order and has no idea how to assemble them....He arrives at the local computer shop and asks the engineer there to assemble them.
When he collects his computer he is shocked that he has to actually pay !!.. "But you used my parts!!!".

Of course This is RL and not fantasy.......I am sure the 'character' in Ryzom will understand your logic

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by rothimar

I built his PC for free. He bought me a case of beer as a thanks, but I didn't require that. He was just being nice.

He was also being sensible....he gave you the beer AFTER you built his computer

[rothimar]

Originally Posted by mugendo

He was also being sensible....he gave you the beer AFTER you built his computer

LOL very true... I don't drink often... so beer *before* would have resulted in a rather large and unweildy sparking paperweight.

I do agree that it would be nice to see more rewards than just mats... but it's dangerous to the crafting community to give rewards that equal or exceed crafted items.

[iphdrunk]

Originally Posted by raynes

2) If I give the crafter my mats to use to craft something for me, they will get xp from that. Why should someone who didn't do any of the work to get the reward get any benefit from it?

Just to mention as well, that the xp gained for crafting "one item" or "one armor" is usually nuggets compared to the number of items that need to be crafted to level. In other words... if you think that by bringing the mats for "one" (or two, accounting for degrades) items you are doing a crafter a favor.... makes me think you don't really craft much (bring him 400 grind mats, he'll be happier). In fact, and when crafting for others with supreme mats, it's more worrying the possibility of degrading and wasting the customer mats. That *is* annoying.

On the other hand.... If I ask a fighter to go kill a boss to get some mats so I can craft an item (for a mission or not) why should I pay the fighter, he already got xp for the kill so it's basically the same.. You are paying for the "service", the "return on investment" for the time spent in a skill" and a particular ability. Like the urban legend of the chopper mechanic that presented a bill for 3000 bucks for screwing a screw with a screwdriver..... 2$ for the act of screwing itself, and 2998 for knowing which screw.

[raynes]

Originally Posted by mugendo

I see your frustration, and I understand your point.
Let me give an example....
A kid buys his computer parts mail order and has no idea how to assemble them....He arrives at the local computer shop and asks the engineer there to assemble them.
When he collects his computer he is shocked that he has to actually pay !!.. "But you used my parts!!!".

Of course This is RL and not fantasy.......I am sure the 'character' in Ryzom will understand your logic

That is not accurate. A more accurate anology would be this:
A kid is told he can have a new computer if the shovels 100 driveways. So he works his butt off and goes to collect his reward. Upon asking for it, he is handed a box of computer parts. Then he is told that he has to take the parts to a shop down the street and pay 200 dollars to get it put togtether. when he complains he is told: "you just don't have the community spirit".

Now is that fair?

Originally Posted by rothimar

Would it be fair to crafters who would be rendered useless with the introduction of loot rewards? You know, you could always trade the mats for other gear/items. Or come up with an idea for a reward that won't screw other people over.


They wouldn't be getting XP from your battles, they would be getting XP for crafting your gear. There is a big difference. Besides, Ryzom is a social game, so I don't understand the problem with this anyway.

You are right, they would not get it from my battles. But for EVERYONE who gets that reward, they are gaurenteed xp and money because they are the only ones that can use it. No crafter, the reward is useless. That simply is not fair. Forcing mats to be the only rewards simply does not make sure crafters have jobs. It also makes sure they benefit from EVERY activity that people do, no matter if they were a part of it or not. You say that the person could sell the mats. Ok, so they sell the mats and get an average item and some cash for a lot of hard work. Meanwhile some crafter somewhere is going to buy those mats, make something nice, charge out the butt for it, and benefit more than the person who did the work in the first place.

I've given lots of examples that don't screw people over, yet they are told it's not fair because crafters aren't needed. Here is one...

-Give a reward of something that enhances existing weapons and armor. For example a warrior gets a sword case that makes their sword sharper and give 10% xp gain over normal crafted items. You still need the player crafted

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by raynes

That is not accurate. A more accurate anology would be this:
A kid is told he can have a new computer if the shovels 100 driveways. So he works his butt off and goes to collect his reward. Upon asking for it, he is handed a box of computer parts. Then he is told that he has to take the parts to a shop down the street and pay 200 dollars to get it put togtether. when he complains he is told: "you just don't have the community spirit".

Now is that fair?

Nope..the Kid got shafted.
But this is not a correct analogy is it....this is an example of 'bait and switch'..another point entirely.

Originally Posted by raynes

-Give a reward of something that enhances existing weapons and armor. For example a warrior gets a sword case that makes their sword sharper and give 10% xp gain over normal crafted items. You still need the player crafted

This is constructive and acceptable in principle, A very nice idea.