Check your inboxes people.

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by kervala

That's not true, players will be the owners of their datas as mentionned on ryzom.org

And for people who are not familiar with French and the law...I know from personal experience the French are really....really..really..strict on the data protection laws. So anybody concerned about personal details will feel reassured that Nevrax is A French company operating in France I hope.

[rheda]

Certainly, some of your affirmations are not true. No offense, I'll try to explain.

First, the NeL engine was produced by Nevrax, then GPL'ed, the community worked on that work, it did not develope it as it is, although you should ask a former NeL community member, since I might be wrong.

As kervala said, accounts do belong to individuals, so if anyone would like to delete it, no one will have rights on it, so it'll be deleted.

In case ryzom.org got control over Ryzom, there's no intention on exploiting a server commercially. The aim of the project is to create a robust paid service in a non-lucrative way. There's no point on thinking some want your money. Read again the info on the webpage, and pay attention to the social contract, please.

As said, I'm not trying to offend you, but since most of your arguments are clearly explained on the webpage, I think you should think twice before posting this on the forums. I'm not saying there aren't gaps yet to be studied and analized, but those are way beyond your last post analysis. Anyway, feel free to join the discussion on ryzom.org if you feel some aspects of the project are unclear. There's a lot of people who will be happy to explain, since this is a community driven project, and not a Xavier-driven project as some insist on saying.

[borg9]

Originally Posted by kervala

That's not true, players will be the owners of their datas as mentionned on ryzom.org

Surely thats characters created on servers after (IF)the 'ryzom.org' charter comes in to effect. At the moment the characters belong to Nevrax, after that they will belong to the purchaser of Nevrax's assests.

..or is it started in the Ryzom.org charter that they will contact exisiting account holders and give the exisiting character data to the existing players, we know that Xavier has a copy of Nevrax's player accounts and emails (or at least some of them).

[iphdrunk]

Originally Posted by rheda

In case ryzom.org got control over Ryzom, there's no intention on exploiting a server commercially. The aim of the project is to create a robust paid service in a non-lucrative way. There's no point on thinking some want your money. Read again the info on the webpage, and pay attention to the social contract, please.

I did. Several times. This is the part that, imho, needs detailed, elaborated explanation and has changed significantly, to the point of having an internal vote within the project and offering players to withdraw their pledges if they do not agree. What you say is how I conceived the project initially. This was the project I was curious in.

This started to be taken with a grain of salt when the non-profit community based association became a third of the recently founded SAS, with 2 new "for profit" investors, "after internal discussions where we agreed the non-profit organization was not realistic and unable to raise enough founds". You say "non-lucrative", uhm, I don't see where. One of the three partners is. You state "there is no point in thinking soem want your money", well, to me, investors, SAS, profit, etc. they tend to imply another thing.

The non-lucrative goal is to be examinated, for in the written "statuts" (written by the partners themselves, maybe from a "template" yes, but I no longer believe in the "non-lucrative" sorry) where it is clearly stated that the "elected" -- by shareholders weight of course -- president can have a salary proportional to the profit or "CA". This is no legalese or law, this is a paragraph written by whoever wrote that document. The social contract is constrained by the will of the two shareholders "but there is no reason to worry", and the community has no vetoing options.

The presented budget was marked as unreliable and unfinished, being a an improved one finished and kept secret till late for strategic purposes. I may stand corrected if this changes. For the time being, I have *no* guarantee that it is non-lucrative. When a player stated there that they may reduce the subscription if there was profit, the subsequent posts stated that this will be clarified later.

When someone answer me the following questions clearly:

1) Will the money of subscriptions invested fully in full time developers, servers and hosting, billing outsourcing and similar costs, or is it at the discretion of share-holders?

2) Can we expect full transparency in this too, including subscribers numbers, operating costs and basically the "CA"? Isn't the original Social contract a bit subject to Shareholders discretion?

3) What's the point in being a non profit organization if you represent (grossly) a third of the capital?

_then_ I'll believe what you say. Maybe it's true, but I am reluctant. I am not saying it is a scam, or that they are lying or have hidden agendas, not at all, just pointing out that I cannot take it "for granted" with legally binding guarantees. It's simple: do you honestly think that the two investors would put (grossly guesstimate by capital shares and weight) 150k Euros to have a non-profit operation of the service?

[rheda]

Originally Posted by borg9

..or is it started in the Ryzom.org charter that they will contact exisiting account holders and give the exisiting character data to the existing players,

There's not been much discussion about this, except for the fact that the servers at Jolt would be kept for at least 3 months after the judiciary process. Then expect allowing every player to choose whether to migrate to the new server or not.

Originally Posted by borg9

we know that Xavier has a copy of Nevrax's player accounts and emails (or at least some of them).

Again... do you really think so? I can tell you he doesn't... how can you even think that?

[borg9]

Originally Posted by rheda

Certainly, some of your affirmations are not true. No offense, I'll try to explain.

First, the NeL engine was produced by Nevrax, then GPL'ed, the community worked on that work, it did not develope it as it is, although you should ask a former NeL community member, since I might be wrong.

If you might be wrong isn't it a bit unfair trying to explain where I have gone wrong?

Originally Posted by rheda

As kervala said, accounts do belong to individuals, so if anyone would like to delete it, no one will have rights on it, so it'll be deleted.

If I understand your explaination correctly, once I create a character on a Ryzom.org server, 'ryzom.org' will not be able to erase my character without my permission. Are 'ryzom.org' liable for damages to my property while it is in 'Ryzom.org' care?

Originally Posted by rheda

In case ryzom.org got control over Ryzom, there's no intention on exploiting a server commercially. The aim of the project is to create a robust paid service in a non-lucrative way. There's no point on thinking some want your money. Read again the info on the webpage, and pay attention to the social contract, please.

This makes no sense!
If you have a paid service, it commercial.
If the aim of the project is not to be lucrative, how will it expand?
Surely the people involved in the project will expect a payment in some form.

Originally Posted by rheda

As said, I'm not trying to offend you, but since most of your arguments are clearly explained on the webpage, I think you should think twice before posting this on the forums. I'm not saying there aren't gaps yet to be studied and analized, but those are way beyond your last post analysis. Anyway, feel free to join the discussion on ryzom.org if you feel some aspects of the project are unclear. There's a lot of people who will be happy to explain, since this is a community driven project, and not a Xavier-driven project as some insist on saying.

Please highlight the area of Ryzom.org that addresses my last two concerns.

I have issues with giving any personal details to 'ryzom.org'. My previous experience is that the data might be miss-used in the future, by individuals within that organisation.

[borg9]

Originally Posted by rheda

There's not been much discussion about this, except for the fact that the servers at Jolt would be kept for at least 3 months after the judiciary process. Then expect allowing every player to choose whether to migrate to the new server or not.


Again... do you really think so? I can tell you he doesn't... how can you even think that?

Look, I will make this very simple...

Borg9 = player account (public information)
[email protected] = email (PRIVATE information)

I gave that email to Nevrax, how come I and many others received an email from an EX-Nevrax employee?

[rheda]

Originally Posted by iphdrunk

_then_ I'll believe what you say. Maybe it's true, but I am reluctant.

Some nice questions, iphdunk, here goes the explaination by Xavier Antoviaque:

1) Invested in full time developers, servers and hosting, billing outsourcing and similar costs; the plan presented to the liquidator is very precise about that, all the money earned here is spent on keeping the game alive.

2) As a shareholder of its own right, the non profit organisation will have access to all the internal information of the company. It isn't at the company discretion, a company has very precise and law-inforced duties towards its shareholders.

3) Multiplying the amount we can offer to the liquidator by 3, and having cash immediately available for the liquidator instead of just pledge promises.

I hope this has been made clear.. if not, please join discussions at our forums, since Xavier won't be able to directly answer questions here

[iphdrunk]

Originally Posted by rheda

(...) here goes the explaination by Xavier Antoviaque:
...

Your post does answer some of my concerns, and I am grateful for that. There are still a few issues, but seems reasonable and understandable. It's good to know that the exact plan proposed will be made public in a short delay.

Regarding your second answer, sorry to be nitpicking, but having access to the information and having a vote / vetoing right is different. Knowing that the SAS president will have a salary of x% is different from being able to prevent it.-- I still wonder why was this clause present in the document, btw- But as I understand, the presented plan clearly states this is not the case, so no worries.

Finally, I still wonder whether having 2 altruist investors does not preclude being all-in-all, a non-profit organization. Yes, you raised 3 times the money with real capital, but wasn't the non-profit option viable? the only argument given was "it is not realistic and has little chance to win".

Should your answers be 100% accurate, and if , as your previous post states, the 3 partner SAS is *in spirit, although not legally* a non-profit organization, then I admit that the two partners giving away 150k Euros (guesstimate) and renouncing to any compensation or profit is altruistic, and I respect that. Other aspects aside, in spirit as in intended, the project has a noble goal: releasing the code in GPL and offer an professional-grade non profit service, but the way it developed left room for lots of questions

Yours,

[blaah]

Originally Posted by borg9

One thing that still puzzles me and I have yet to find the answer to, NeL the game engine requires a 150,000 euro licence to be used in a commercial product.

actually, anyone can use GPL software for commercial product. only requirement is that source code is made available and no other restriction on distributing that program (you can put its binaries/source to public server for all to download)

NeL has dual licence or Nevrax would be in violation of GPL themselves for not giving out Ryzom client source.