The economy IS broken: Suggestions / Reasons?

[marct]

The main reason I see for the broken economy is the player population. The population is not only small, but the percentage of players that are 'dedicated' (6+ hours a day) or 'uber-dedicated' (10+hours a day) to the overall population size is the main problem. Our guild is starting to become large, and it is clear that at some point in the near future as our size grows it will be impossible to supply all of our members with the equipment they require.

I see a day in the near future where choice equipment will be the norm, and a premium will truley be placed on supreme and excellent items.

However, the main problem I see is that the merchant system 'ONLY' trades in dapper. At the current point in time dapper is not the item of value. The trading systems that are working are conducted either outside of game, or solely through communications directly to/from the crafter.

This has totally blown the market for the new player as there is no motivation to put stuff on the vendor that you are not even sure that others can use. Here is what I hear, "Why would I make Q30, Q50, and Q80 stuff when I am crafting Q160 and only 2 of the 20 items I put on the market are sold? It is a waste of my time."

So, my suggestions.
1. The trade system needs to change to work both ways. I should be able to post a request for an item along with my payment to an 'intermediary'. The crafter would make the item, that matches my min specs and I can then accept the item. This would also benefit in that it would be an off-line system. In that I could post a request and an off-line player would later be able to see my request and utilize it.

2. The trading system needs to be more flexible. I should be able to request Q100 mats of a certain type at a certain price. This could make it profitable to be a digger only at that level. I could offer 1000 dapp a mat, and that would be incredibly more than someone could get from crafting it into something themselves.

3. We need a higher population of casual players. This will ONLY be accomplished through making the game easier for a beginning player to achieve. Some tutorials, flash based editing of stanzas, interface help, etc. NPC 'helpers' that teach you history as they help you decide the best skill to purchase. Maybe even a "I don't want to know the details mode." I know too many people who are overwhelmed by the editing of stanzas and the skills, not to mention cannot get a handle on the interface. These people are quickly frustrated and leave. It takes me 1-2 hours to try and talk someone through editing a stanza, and I have done this several times. There is no way for me to "show" them how to do it in-game, or for them to learn in-game.

4. The class-less system does not allow for a specialist to have an advantage over someone who is just plain old UBER. If I was solely a digger, should I not have some advantage over someone who splits their skills between digging, crafting, and Healing magic? The Uber player has his or her place, but so does the specialist.

Please add your points and suggestions to improve the system.

[lazarus]

We have a large guild. We have issues getting sufficient mats, but what we do is use the best mats to craft for the highest level people, and they in turn pass on that kit to lower level people as they outgrow it.

Additionally, as people level up either craft or forage, they can supply the lower q mats so the higher crafters can make stuff for lower level people (if that makes sense).

Why do people always get so obsessed about the "economy" in MMOGs? The economy, simplistic as it is, is not broken. There is no inflation, no taxation and no other currency to concern ourselves with. People are not asking for 1 million dappers for a q 10 sword, so how exactly is the economy broken?

I do think a 'request item' or similar scheme is a good idea however

If I was solely a digger, should I not have some advantage over someone who splits their skills between digging, crafting, and Healing magic?

You have - you'll level quicker in digging than the other person, and obtain mats at a higher rate.

[bcharles]

Interesting analysis. It seems to me that there are two main reason people aren't selling things to the vendors. First, dappers just aren't worth much. The second you allude to. When you combine quality, grade, type, color, etc., there are a huge number of things people could be making. There's not much point in making all of them, though, if only two get bought before a week is up. There's just not much reason to stock the public vendors.

My suggestion mostly address the second problem. Private vendors. For a weekly (daily, whatever) fee (a sizeable one) you can rent a vendor who will sell just your stuff. Potentially you could also have them buy things you need. You can stock your vendor with whatever you like; armor, weapons, mats, you name it. As long as you pay the vendor's salary, your merchandise stays available. That way you can leave a wide variety of items available. It would also help consumers, in that they would know where to go if they were looking for a specific type of item. The rental fee would have to be high enough that everyone and his sister wouldn't grab a vendor just for the heck of it, and we'd need to find a place for them to hang out, but those are solvable issues.

[malkor]

Here is what Mai thinks:

The reason that dappers arn't worth much is b/c people have decided they arn't. If people rely on the market for goods, as they most definitly should (w/in guild is fine, but you start getting to a point where it's de-valueing the market itself) then dappers will have value. People need to be dedicated to the fact that dappers have value, and they will. As soon as the general popluation decided 'dappers are only for getting TP tickets' then the economy fails.

Dappers will again play a role once the outpost system get us, so far as I know. Maintaining a constant player watch over outposts will be near impossible, so people will definitly need to take advantage of the hired NPC guards and such.

I'm and advanced Heavy armorer, and I do mai exchanges in dappers. Follow that lead, and Mai is sure that the economy will once again be based on dappers.

[zumwalt]

Although the highest Q of armor I could make was 110, medium quality, heavy set, (not including the list of weapons I could make or other stuff), I made it a point to make full sets of q50 - q110 as I harvested 3 full packers of armor mats.

Those sets in turn got put on market at %250 markup a piece.
Which really wasn't asking alot for an item made with choice material.

Nothing I sold was lower than choice, and even the Q50 stuff was made from the mats I got that I also made the Q110 stuff from.

I think some of my helms were selling as low as 3k a helm.

If I am not mistaken, a full Q110 set modi choice sold at 60k with that markup.

I don't think it was over $75k for a full set at that price.

Once I had reached Q100 and matched my level of wear, I wasn't worried about the grind, and was more than happy to make full sets from the Q50 up to my max, and every set I had, I put HP bonus on.

Maybe if all crafters made it a point to put atleast 2 full sets of odd and end gear on market daily, that would help the community as a whole?

Its nothing compared to 9 full sets at a time that I dropped on market. (I think I had 14 full sets on market at one time, I could be wrong, I just loose track of what i put up)

In the end, its up to the crafters to decide to do this of there own free will.

This has nothing to do with Nevrax.

They gave you the tools, the players got the levels, and they left it up to the players to decide how to deal with production.

[figgybee]

Originally Posted by bcharles

My suggestion mostly address the second problem. Private vendors. For a weekly (daily, whatever) fee (a sizeable one) you can rent a vendor who will sell just your stuff. Potentially you could also have them buy things you need. You can stock your vendor with whatever you like; armor, weapons, mats, you name it. As long as you pay the vendor's salary, your merchandise stays available. That way you can leave a wide variety of items available. It would also help consumers, in that they would know where to go if they were looking for a specific type of item. The rental fee would have to be high enough that everyone and his sister wouldn't grab a vendor just for the heck of it, and we'd need to find a place for them to hang out, but those are solvable issues.

Sounds like an idea for the outposts.. guild vendors.

[mtsmith]

Another idea for helping to stimulate a stagnant ecomony is the implementation of a simple auction system. In 1997, I played the AOL version of Neverwinter Nights. Outside of the Neverwinter Vault (bank), one could find as many as 50 individuals holding private auctions. While this was completely player driven, it seemed to keep things moving and also gave folks more of a choice. If they thought that an item price was too high, they simply would not bid on it. This gave the sellers a much better idea of what folks were willing to pay and also probably made them more money in the long run.

To give an example of why this system might work, consider the following scenario:

A jewel crafter makes q200 hitpoint sets. These sets sell for 400,000 dappers on a vendor. While this might seem fair to the jewel crafter, many folks are just not willing to pay these prices (not I, but many). Player A is perfectly willing to pay the 400k, since he/she is also a crafter and has a surplus of dappers to spend on high value items. Player B has cruised through the levels, but he/she is a pure fighter/mage and relies upon the sale of quartered items to make a living. While this can be somewhat lucrative, it in no way compares to the income garnered by crafting even middle quality items. By auctioning off the sets, the jewel crafter can better determine a happy medium that will result in better long-term profits, though at what would most likely be a lower markup. As the Windermeer population increases, the jewel crafter will begin to see much higher numbers of sales, even if they are selling each piece at a slightly lower price. The work>dapper ratio does lose balance, somewhat, but this concept would increase the amount of grind mats on the market, because those figher/mages will be able to hunt more often. It could also reduce the amount of competition for crafters, since those folks will be able to pursue their passion, rather than sucking it up and spending their valuable time crafting items to make an income.

I do realize that there is a bazaar forum, but a web auction system might be even more appropriate. Players of other games such as Diablo II, Ultima Online, and EverQuest have even set up privately run auction sites for in-game items. The advent of a buyer/seller rating system will help even more to provide players with information about who is reliable and who is best to avoid.

To sum up, I will look into the idea of setting up a Ryzom web auction system with all the basic features that you would find at Ebay or Yahoo! Auctions. Once I work out the details, I see no problem with hosting the site initially, with full access to players on Windermeer. Perhaps, if the system is successful, Nevrax will considering taking over and turning the system into one that supports all shards and higher bandwidth. If any of you have additional ideas or would like to discuss the pros/cons of such a system, please either PM me here or message Spiff on Windermeer.

All aside, though, I believe that the largest problem is the simple fact that the vast majority of players tend to want that loving hack 'n slash feel that has been shoved down our throats for the past decade. Though most of us like the idea of roleplaying, all of the games we play require a lot of time to gain the levels we need, so we tend to get into that 'grind' mode and try to power level our ways to the top. Roleplaying events, a more reliable/functional fame system, working rites, outposts, and the myriad other expected fixes/upgrades will most definitely help to take some of the focus from the constant pursuit of that next level.

PS: I do realize that my post count in the official forums is very low. Please do not think that this is any indication of a lack of my dedication or concern for the future of the game. I generally tend to be a lurker, reading posts to find out all that I can prior to making a statement. This community is filled with thinkers and if we can pool all of these great ideas, both in and out of the game, Ryzom will continue to grow into its potential of being one of the greatest MMORPG's of all time.

[lyrah68]

My idea is this, how about an in game "request" type system. A player that needs item X of quality Y could go to a town and click on the "bulletine board" and get connected to the forum there and post their needs. The crafters that want to help, could look at the in town BB (I think this BB should be viewable civilization wide. IE, possible purchaser is in Pyr, I open the BB in Dyron, and see his needs, those that I can fill I could tell him about and make an offer....) they could either pass in game email or meet and discuss it or trade tells.

From what I have seen, those that need gear under Q100, they are wanting "something closer to my top Q level X better than the junk the NPC sells". Some are a bit less reasonable than that...but not all.

[mtsmith]

While this sounds great in theory and would definitely improve playability, it is not really very realistic. I think most would agree that better realism helps much to make the entire experience much more enjoyable.

[marct]

Originally Posted by mtsmith

While this sounds great in theory and would definitely improve playability, it is not really very realistic. I think most would agree that better realism helps much to make the entire experience much more enjoyable.

It is totally realistic if the Delivery missions were tied to the buletin board. Doesn't that make sense?