Understanding each other calmly (Neutrals, Kami, Karavan)

[moyaku]

Hey,

I came to think after reading the "Faction Nerf" Thread, that I didn't have a clue on what motivates somebody to stay neutral (or turn Kara but that's another matter :P *joke*)

So I d like you Neutrals to explain to me why you decided to stay Neutral ;
- What does it add to your RP stance ?
- How come you feel like you can only go this way ?
- Had the lore have any impact on your decision ?


Just trying to understand a little better

*points at the "forever n00b" in his sig*

[sluggo0]

Sadly, I picked a goofy title, and used sarcasm in the first post on that thread, but sure, I'd love to hear a concise calm $0.02 from folks.

Hopefully we can manage that (please?).

My story is simple, my wife and I met 3 or 4 people when we first came to the mainland, 1 Kami, 3 Karavan, and didn't comit to a guild for weeks literally.

We discussed it together, in terms of how much fun we'd had with all the people involved, how similar to us we thought they were, and in the end, went with the ones that helped us out the most, and seemed the most mature.

So, I became Karavan, wasn't concerned with the whys, read a bit, couldn't make a conclusion on any one vs. the other, but due to the guild we joined, we picked our faction.

I'm sure that's it for some folks, and see nothing wrong with it, my 'roleplay' is mostly just me being myself, having fun, I do sometimes meet up with more 'serious' roleplayers, and try to respect them and speak a bit more 'in character' and go along with their mannerisms and avoid OOC personal things unless they grow to become very good friends, in which case I respect the convention that we use brackets to delineate.. anyhow, I'm just a simple homin in some respects I guess :P. I am as much a social player as a grinder, I like the crafting and know that if I'd made more friends on the Kami side, woudl be a loyal Kamist instead, because I'm loyal to my friends above all else, just didn't work out that way .

[grimjim]

Hopefully Marjo will still be paying attention if it continues calmly :P A thread lock was the only indication anyone was paying attention.

So I d like you Neutrals to explain to me why you decided to stay Neutral ;

What does it add to your RP stance?

This really combines with your third question so the answers will, in some respects, look similar.

What it adds, or should add, is freedom. A cardinal point of Ryzom's appeal on every level. At least if you believe the blurb

It better reflects the Fyros (and Tryker) spirit than the more extremist view of joining a faction, and thus fits me better. It fits the (lore informed) background and in game history and experience of my character.

That's the short version, but as I say, it combines with your third question.

It's the best stance for a mercenary, even a principled one.

How come you feel like you can only go this way?

The Kami faction isn't played as extremists as much as the Karavan faction but the Kami themselves are somewhat sinister, completely hypocritical and have also completely failed to do anything to stand up for their people. (If they REALLY didn't want those Kara drills on their land you'd think they'd let off a few 6k explosions at OP battles or prevent the OPs being built).

The Karavan faction, as played in game ARE expansionist extremists which is counter to everything my character believes in and I have to interpret and react to the actions of that group IC as well as OOC. In both cases I disapprove though for different reasons.

The Karavan themselves are also no better than the Kami, perhaps even slightly worse. Hidden, unnatural, polluting, sinister and from events and lore they are very much the 'bad guys' from my IC point of view.

Had the lore have any impact on your decision?

Definately.
The lore has been somewhat 'fiddled with' since launch so you can't see everything that once was there, or the meaning of some of it has been subtly altered in places, but the progression of a character in game is organic anyway.

The main points from that lore that informed Jyudas' neutraility have been.

1. The state of the world - we're supposed to be rebuilding.
2. The GOOD lore relations between all the homin leaders.
3. The alliance between Kami, Karavan and Tryton required to see off and survive the Swarming.
4. That the Kitin are the greater enemy.
5. The relatively neutral stance of the Fyros (and Tryker - and their historical alliance).

Combine that with events, ESPECIALLY the Temple War and Jyudas' neutrality is now a pretty permanent fixture, barring some amazing revelation.

[mithur]

Originally Posted by grimjim

The Karavan faction, as played in game ARE expansionist extremists which is counter to everything my character believes in and I have to interpret and react to the actions of that group IC as well as OOC. In both cases I disapprove though for different reasons.

I can't stand to this.

We all have a lot of reasons IG and IC for our elections and our allergiances. Our character could be and use to be very different in ideas and belhaviour that we are in RL.

It appears that you think about people, RL people, based in the choices that people do IG. If someone goes for PvP is a child, if someone goes for Karavan is a fascist, and so on. Stop do that, stop to slip that kind of thoughts, please.

You can see a PvPr Karavan o Kami, being IG a killer expansionist psichotic dictator (And, in this game, don't use to exist that kind of PCs) that in RL is a paceful and mature person who collaborate for the peace and have very strong democratics beliefs, and you can see a PC peaceful PvEr neutral who wants to rebuild Atys that in RL is a dictator trying to impose their opinion to all people and trying to bring conflict at every single step he gives.

Don't mix the two things anymore, please. It doesn't bring any good.

BTW, in your post I've see that you are a neutral by elimination; this is, you don't explain why you are a neutral, you explain why you aren't a Kami or a Karavan. Could someone else, another neutral who has made the choice of being neutral not for elimination, bring their opinions? Only for all points of view's sake.

[moyaku]

Originally Posted by grimjim

Kami are [...] sinister, completely hypocritical and have also completely failed to do anything to stand up for their people

Now I need a bit of explanation on :

- How are we hypocritical ?

And also I must point out that at the point we lost OPs in Kami lands (I was Karavan at this point) Kamists were far outnumbered and I remember Kami(Van), just like I was, trying to help in fights but even with this we most of the time got overwhelmed. (Plus I must Admit Karavan have a pretty good OP strategy/organisation).
Anyhow, Being now a Kami I can (just like everyone else) say that Kami Alliance is really doing better.

Originally Posted by mithur

It appears that you think about people, RL people, based in the choices that people do IG

I probably didn't read the same post as you did but it's ok . only you mixing both IG and RL here imo.

[grimjim]

Originally Posted by mithur

I can't stand to this.

Well, it was part of the answer to the question which I was asked. You can disagree, but I will disagree with your disagreement.

Originally Posted by mithur

We all have a lot of reasons IG and IC for our elections and our allergiances. Our character could be and use to be very different in ideas and belhaviour that we are in RL.

Here's the relevent part of what you quoted.

In both cases I disapprove though for different reasons.

I have my IC reasons for disliking some (not all) of the people involved in the KA assaults etc.

I have my OOC reasons for disliking some (not all) of the people involved in the KA assaults etc.

While the disliked characters are often those of disliked players, this is not a hard and fast rule and may not necessarily be the case. EG: I might like a character played by someone I dislike, and I might like the player of a character I dislike. Though people who play... annoying characters, do often tend to be annoying (to me) people themselves.

Originally Posted by mithur

BTW, in your post I've see that you are a neutral by elimination; this is, you don't explain why you are a neutral, you explain why you aren't a Kami or a Karavan. Could someone else, another neutral who has made the choice of being neutral not for elimination, bring their opinions? Only for all points of view's sake.

That's because it is more that I have remained neutral. We all used to work together after all (with only a minority of exceptions). Though I had stronger Kami leanings in the past. When Tryton played more of a role it was a more active choice (I did miss that out) but the Temple war and subsequent events greatly reduced the promise of any Trytonist part to play.

[thlau]

Originally Posted by moyaku

Now I need a bit of explanation on :
- How are we hypocritical ?

Maybe we need to define some wordings to use in the discussion

Kami: furry, barky, ethereal creatures
Kamist: homin that follows Ma-Duk

Karavan: the environmental overall wearing homins (?)
Karavaneer: homin that follow the Karavan

So Jyudas didn't say that the Kamists are hypocritical, but that the Kami are.

[moyaku]

Originally Posted by thlau

Maybe we need to define some wordings to use in the discussion

Kami: furry, barky, ethereal creatures
Kamist: homin that follows Ma-Duk

Karavan: the environmental overall wearing homins (?)
Karavaneer: homin that follow the Karavan

So Jyudas didn't say that the Kamists are hypocritical, but that the Kami are.

*scribbles down notes* Thankies for precision Trini

Originally Posted by grimjim

[...]Temple war and subsequent events greatly reduced the promise of any Trytonist part to play.

Where can I find infos about Tryton, it's a part of the lore I never read about, and it seems like to you it could lead to a real "neutral faction".

*EDIT* Stop me whenever I say something noobish like Trini just did... trying to perfect my knowledge of the lore here

[grimjim]

Originally Posted by moyaku

Now I need a bit of explanation on :

- How are we hypocritical ?

This is the trouble with these terms. The Kami (or indeed the Karavan) _people_ might be completely honest and forthright. The 'gods' that they follow are not.

The Temple war 'Dig for victory!' is the baldest example. Even if I put it down to lack of forethought on the part of the devs at the time, amongst other probs with the event, you have to react to it IC as you see it IC.

Originally Posted by moyaku

And also I must point out that at the point we lost OPs in Kami lands (I was Karavan at this point) Kamists were far outnumbered and I remember Kami(Van), just like I was, trying to help in fights but even with this we most of the time got overwhelmed. (Plus I must Admit Karavan have a pretty good OP strategy/organisation).
Anyhow, Being now a Kami I can (just like everyone else) say that Kami Alliance is really doing better.

Things equalised briefly, but now the Kami/Moderate side seems to be on a downswing yet again. You just can't overcome that positive feedback loop. But that's another thread again...

[grimjim]

Originally Posted by moyaku

*scribbles down notes* Thankies for precision Trini

Where can I find infos about Tryton, it's a part of the lore I never read about, and it seems like to you it could lead to a real "neutral faction".

*EDIT* Stop me whenever I say something noobish like Trini just did... trying to perfect my knowledge of the lore here

It's mixed through the lore section, but he's been de-emphasised it seems.
He is a third 'god' faction, or demigod, served by a guild and allied with The Rangers. He and his followers have been treated as heretics or undermining forces in the past but their involvement in early events portrayed them as a neutral party genuinely concerned with the homin, rather than the goals of the factions.

The Tryker believe Tryton to be 'The Husband of Jena' - another heretical belief.
During the swarming he's the one that evacuated the homin to the Prime Roots across the rainbow bridges while the factional powers fought the kitin.
He warned (perhaps too soon) about Jena and her celestial armies coming to Atys.
He's currently somewhere in the deep roots and is 'up to something' - though OOC I suspect this was somewhat to keep him out of circulation for a bit.

Tryton would be a good core foundation for a neutral faction since he would be likely to help 'neutrals' (and moderates) of any stripe or inclination without prejudice, providing a good reason, and method, for the neutrals of all types to get services and full access to content.

He wouldn't be perfect though, since he seems to have his own agenda that other neutrals may not agree with.