Neturals in PR?

[grimjim]

Originally Posted by raynes

I really wish people would stop trying to change the game so they don't have to deal with certain aspects of it.

I do wish people would stop changing the game so we have to deal with certain aspects of it.

[grimjim]

Raynes, you clearly haven't been paying attention which is why I'm not at all surprised that you're entirely wrapped up in your own, entirely biased and single minded view of things.

What happens when you have shades of grey is that you get a far more interesting storyline where right and wrong are not explicit and a far greater variety of interpretations, storylines and more engaging moments of characterisation are possible.

You play a fanatic, just as you did before, this is the absolute most simplistic and lazy form of roleplaying there is IMO. As a fanatic everything is black and white and that bleeds over into your OOC interpretation of the game as well. You see everything as yes/no with no room for 'maybe' or a third way at all.

Nobody, least of all me, is saying that the game MUST go down the neutral line of thought but it should be, must be, as viable a way of playing as possible for both IC and OOC reasons. It doesn't exclude there being Kami or Karavan fanatics or even the two sides having their selfish and destructive little war-by-proxy with each other. All three story threads to weave alongside and between and through each other and the world will be all the richer for it.

I want the Kami and Karavan fanatics to have their fun but I also want those who choose a different path to have some viability for themselves. If that has to come through in a game-within-a-game then so be it, the ring concept and lore fits that nicely but access to the main-game also needs to be there as well.

If you want to play an amoral fanatical psychopath then, by all means, your amoral psychopath should be cut down by city guards, not allowed to trade in certain lands and so forth, they should also get additional compensation, from the side that they have chosen, in the form of higher end encyclopaedia missions, additional teleports, rewards from their sponsering organisation and so on. Equally, those who play in a more moderate fashion should have their own rewards, adaptability, freedom of movement and so forth. The problem we have is that things have been taken away only, not added to.

The dumbing down process didn't really start until Episode 2 and it was disappointing that even the mature community here couldn't cope with in and went rabid for a few weeks, but I guess that happens with any new toy. I hope we've seen something of a reversal in that thinking with the Ring, back towards the original concept of the world and game a little. I am suspicious of the Kitin nest simply being facile raid content that could undermine the game, but I'll reserve judgement until I see it. Restoring the boss bandits is good, I think, with all the changes though the thought of killing them over and over for random armour section drops gives me hives, but then I won't be doing it and if it helps prevent uber armour from undermining the crafters so much, then all the better. Spires being shoved back was another positive sign but we're yet to see what else is cooking really, so we'll see.

The TP restriction, however, just feels like artificial pressure and was a hamfisted way to go about it.

[ajsuk]

Welcome back, Raynes

Please accept this set of complimentary ear plugs as our gift to you!

[praha]

Originally Posted by aardnebb

*groans*

You know the fame grind isnt exactly a lot of work. Takes about a day to go from +20 (a starting character) to hit the level required for PR TPs.

I believe it is 30 Faction Fame to delcare and 33 Faction Fame to use Factional Mainland TP's. Which is the work you described above. Civ fame is easy to grind in 2-3 sessions spread out over 2 days. I won't disagree with you on that one. Faction fame takes a bit more time than that. Due to less missions available when compared to the large number of civ missions.

PR requires 60 (not obtainable unless you've already declared) someodd fame to get the TP's.

On my new toon lvl 40-ish combat I've averaged 4 Kami fame, and 17 Zorai over about a six hr period running missions. After +30 Kami Fame, fame really starts to slow down unless you start killing tribes for Fame points.

[gillest]

Originally Posted by raynes

The teleports in the roots are owned by either the Kami or the Karavan. If you wish to use them, you have to join one of the sides. It is a benefit of picking one side. In no way should they change it so someone who does not join a side gets the same benefits as those who do choose a side.

So are the TP on mainland but some are available to neutrals as well: it is a compromise situation.
I can understand what you say in which case neutral should NOT HAVE ANY access to ANY TP so then we can be "fake neutrals" and get fame and faction for TP only..

On the other side, allowing some ML TP to neutrals and none in PR doesn t make sense...

[danolt]

Originally Posted by grimjim

You play a fanatic, just as you did before, this is the absolute most simplistic and lazy form of roleplaying there is IMO. As a fanatic everything is black and white and that bleeds over into your OOC interpretation of the game as well. You see everything as yes/no with no room for 'maybe' or a third way at all.

I am growing weary of your claim that somehow yours is the most difficult RP choice, followed by showering yourself with praise about how open minded you are. Basically, I am hearing you say that soldiers fighting in a war for their countries don't have to make any hard choices because they choose a side. That somehow the internal struggles within an individual are less, if you follow something greater then yourself, and put on a uniform. So pretty much every soldier, who choose a side, in any war, always made easier moral choices compared to the ones you are facing each time you struggle with going to the PR.

I recall when Nevrax discussed players who would choose not to become factioned, they said it would be hard, very hard and most likely impossible if you angered both sides. I never took this to mean from an RP point of view. I understood it to be from a mechanical point of view.

If you think you are upset now, just wait a bit. How do you propose you are going to get to the new lands when the factions open up areas for reclamation? Did the fact that the side whose tp you used to go the temple battle area escape your nonpartisan, extremely unbiased mind?

Pero

[blaah]

Originally Posted by raynes

Once upon a time teleports were available to anyone, there was no meaning behind Kami/Karavan, and fame meant nada.

fame still doesn't mean a thing. really, it's just pretty number in fame window.

The Kami and Karavan conflict and lore is central to the lore and the game. EVERY player should have to deal with them and the choices they make surrounding them.

thing is, kami or kara players are not affected by this conflict at all. Spires would of "fixed" it (planned release date was around when new fame kicked in or ep 2, dont rememeber, but "not enough testing time" was reason they not in game atm).
Now spires are pushed back because you cant take toys away from kami/kara aligned ppl (didnt stop doing it for neutrals tho).

The teleports in the roots are owned by either the Kami or the Karavan. If you wish to use them, you have to join one of the sides.

not exactly accurate. you just need to join a side to _buy_ tp tickets. fame loss for tribes is meaningless. fame grind is meaningless (getting one level in afflictions around lvl 200 is harder than getting kami/kara fame to 100).

They added the fame requirements and it added meaning to things that did not have them before.

want to have meaning for fame ? make q250 pr tp's require 100 fame, 80 for q200 and 60 for q150 pr, however, you lose fame over time. so, you need to be a good little follower and grind fame every week or so. (cap it so it dont drop below 60 ;-)

also, for yubo's sake, make it so kami cant use karavan tickets (and other way around) _at all_. it's been long enough from fame patch and all old tickets should be gone ;-)
... and allowing neutrals still use tickets that they cant buy, would be reward for fame grind.

[grimjim]

And I grow weary of people trying to push their specific playstyle and PoV onto others while I take a more hollistic approach. A shade of grey IS a more difficult and interesting RP choice and it is possible to pursue while also taking a side. The 2D fanatical representations that Raynes or Doubletap portray are very simplistic but even those who make factional choices needn't be the same sort of cardboard cut outs as those, as we see in some OP battles where Kami or Karavan moderates end up fighting for different sides.

Incidentally a lot of military training is done trying to create reactions rather than thought and to instil the simplistic thinking of 'the enemy' in order to make soldiers more effective but 'Just following orders' hasn't been an excuse, at least not since Nuremburg.

The temple war was forced by fame with only a laughable attempt to provide a role for neutrals, which I nonetheless followed throughout the battle. If I had had +1/-1 fame the teleport would have still been the same. Making the best of an awful situation and trying to participate as best as possible.

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by grimjim

Portals are natural aspects of Atys.
Teleports are 'unnatural' extra locations one can teleport to.

Reasons for neutral teleports?

Maybe this thread is going off track, but if it's still regarding the original ticket seller I have these points in mind.

Originally Posted by grimjim

1. Neutrals trade with all sides boosting the economy of both factions.

TP does not effect the ability of neutrals to trade...just the ease of movement for those neutrals.

Originally Posted by grimjim

2. The factions, as rivals, should be trying to attract extra converts.

Yes you are correct, and one of the attractions is the TP point use for any neutral who declares their allegiance to a faction...giving away a 'lure' will not assist in gaining converts.

Originally Posted by grimjim

3. Tryton already has rainbow-bridge technology, which was/is a mass teleport function - a faction is unecessary for teleportation.

This is a lore issue pointing that it is feasable to have TP for neutrals, not general yae/nae on general teleport points for neutrals. Another thread in the making ?

Originally Posted by grimjim

4. Portals already exist as natural phenomena as spawn points.

But you cannot use a respawn until it is visited when alive. Even these are somtimes used as 'convenient' travel already.

[aardnebb]

Originally Posted by praha

I believe it is 30 Faction Fame to delcare and 33 Faction Fame to use Factional Mainland TP's. Which is the work you described above. Civ fame is easy to grind in 2-3 sessions spread out over 2 days. I won't disagree with you on that one. Faction fame takes a bit more time than that. Due to less missions available when compared to the large number of civ missions.

PR requires 60 (not obtainable unless you've already declared) someodd fame to get the TP's.

Yesyesyes I know all this.

It took a guildmate about 16 hours all told to quit guild, grind fame, join faction, grind more fame, buy PR TPs, quit faction, join guild.

I have personally ground out about 20 faction fame in 4 hours. With a good team of 2-3 high level people working together, its not very hard at all.

so yeah, about a days play on a weekend if you dont mind missing a little sleep.

Now why are people moaning about this as they only have to do it once? If it was every week or even every month it could get to be boring... but once? heh, its not bad at all. And apparantly it was even easier during temple guard massacre.

So yeah, give me about 16 hours of one-off work in exchange for PR TPs for as long as I like? pfff thats not hard at all. And 16 hours is _nothing_ for grind. Its more like a Fame-stroll.