Faction Nerfs...

[grimjim]

Originally Posted by mrshad

It DOES fit the current lore.
I have yet to see you explain why the Higher Powers would teleport neutrals or opposing factions. They would need more motivaiton than just the dapper alone.

No, it doesn't fit the current lore. While there's been some sneaky edits and snips (unannounced) in the lore section the basic premise of the game presented in the lore has not changed. Namely 'rebuild'. Warring is not rebuilding.

None of the hostilities that have emerged have been built up in lore. The temple war made absolutely zero sense in context of lore at the time, neither have the outpost battles. No effort to explain or change context, just 'bam' here it is. Approximate to the Kami and Karavan (powers, note) just waking up one morning and deciding 'Durrr... we fight now'.

They did used to TP people around no problem.
Neutral powers in these situations act as useful go betweens and traders.
They should be trying to win 'em over.

Originally Posted by mrshad

You have also yet to explain what reward a faction should give out, if TPs shouldn't be one of them.

No, by all means, TPs should have been one of them, but EXTRA teleports. The old ones shouldn't have been taken away. Other options could include faction based encyclopaedia missions or equipment (as per temple rewards).

Originally Posted by mrshad

In short, it seems you were fine with being neutral when it didn't cost you anything, and it netted you the all-powerful moral supieriority.
Now that there is a tangible benefit to taking a side in the conflict, you are a bit upset that you don't get to be part of it. Really, though, you are looking at the wrong conflict.

Why should we be forced to play the conflict? Why has there been this shift towards PvP at great and woeful cost? I've enjoyed the IC conflicts, rhetoric, discussion and debate a great deal but... this is a game (note I'm not saying JUST a game) and should remain an enjoyable experience for all players. AO managed a complete role for its neutral faction as have other games. A good GM responds to the needs of their players. That's the difference between interactive games and novels.

Originally Posted by mrshad

You see, in the former equation, it is Have/Have-not. In the latter it is win/win. Once again, it is all a matter of attitude.

Your pronouncements and attempts at witticism along with Spriteh's frequent sig quotations and the antics of the usual suspects do marginally increase the value of the feeling of moral superiority though.

[dakhound]

Originally Posted by grimjim

But retained access to all areas. Retained the options. Losing city access, 250 access and PR access all in one fell swoop takes a lot away. Losing half your access points but still getting easy access to the areas doesn't compare.

/ok rant on

this still doesnt mean you should be entitiled to it all back because they re-introduce a few mobs back into PR to make it more challenging, and ffs why do you even care you never go there, dig there, fight there. you are whinging for the damn sake of it, you say the same BS over and over and over, have you noticed its only a few of your own guild who agree with you, have you noticed 99% of the community think your wrong, have you noticed that your so wrong that ppl love to argue with you so you can make a bigger fool out of yourself. For god sake stop it, no-one gives a rats ass for your cause/opinion. You have managed to destroy/derail more threads on this forum than any single person (including LT/jayce/spriteh). I hope they do bring them back,
I personally hope they bring them back so they only attack neutral players, hang out at portals to roots and have a 1000m aggro to any neutral of the whinging persuasion. Such is life that I will get no joy.

/and off again

[tigrus]

Originally Posted by kuroari

Bah, Pop's right,

as many now know or are finding out slowly, i've recently left the Samsara to seek new challenges in the world. i decided on forming my own guild, and obviuosly i had to choose a faction. i decided that, for the time bieng, i will remain neutral - and YES neutral = a faction.


but, now growing in a small family of my own (Jyudas has grandkids!) i've realized all the more forcefully that bieng neutrals is _fine_ when it comes to sub 150(or even up to 200) hunting and digging, but once you try entering the more elite areas of Atys, remaining neutral is a huge nerf. even though obviously i can pick a side at any time, we've chosen for the time bieng to remain neutral because it seems its us neutrals that stand out the most, picking sides is falling into oblivion - becoming just another slave to demanding dieties.

-one comment that caught my eye and really 'pissed me off' was saying that "people have trekked through PR with kitin patrols once, whats the difference now?" is one of the most absurd comments i've recently heard. i can trek PR inside and out - so long as i'm in a group, wearing my HP ARMOR and HP JEWELRY with HEALERS AND NUKERS AND MELEE.

BAH, sickens me to think people are saying Neutrals just whine because they can't have the TPs - when they are contently TPing anywhere their heart desires.

-for the record, NO i don't think neutrals should have all TPs, but maybe having PR TPs in non250 zones? or at least one here or there damit.. the trek from ToT all the way up to Windy Gate is a complete joke. not because its "so hard" but because its such a waste of time - we need to trek huge distances to get to mats that Faction-aligned can snipe in at season change and snag from under our noses.

-NB
Nightblade

Sidekick, SHUSH. Im fighting Jyudas here, get on msn you slacker!

[aardnebb]

Neutral PR digger here.

Got up to 168 never used a PR TP, using only the cats I have been gifted by friends or earned myself.

And its a PITA, and I do watch factioned players spend less time at it leveling faster, because they dont have a 5, 10, 15 minute run to the right spot in _addition_ to the wait time for weather/time for EVERY SINGLE BAG. And to do so, I need to traverse 5, 10, 15 minutes more runs worth of aggro. So I die more, spend more time digging off DP in Void...

So yah, I may actually know what I am talking about when it comes to neutrals in PR. Not 250 yet perhaps, but...

[cygnus]

Cho gave me a fresh PR challenge, tho with no patrols it was so much easier.
I did the spawn point run at about lvl 30, no jewels and crap armour. Took me a couple of days and max dp but that was mostly crossing ToT. With no high levels killing bosses etc EVERYTHING was up

No fame and no tp's (I was somehwere around lvl 200-210 I think when I finally finished the fame grind). I can run ToT to EF/Windy border just about blindfolded now, the only drawback is a bit of wasted time. There is also the death port option and respawn at EF/Nexus spawn point, I preferred the challenge of running it. Access for neutrals or those without the required fame is good. PR is hardly a challenge anymore, the majority want the challenge again, me included.

[aardnebb]

"bit of wasted time"

"deathport"

these are the bits that are the issue, if I deathport, I dont level. A bit of wasted time, multiplied by hundreds of bagfuls = a cr*pton of wasted time.

Gotta agree with previous posters that have mentioned another option here...

Keep current zones as is, add new zones with KP. Perhaps give the kitin lair some good digable stuff, and instead of working on KP use dev time on fast-tracking that to completion...

More "beef" for the thrillseekers, no new "nerf" for me, and I dont think anyone would complain, since it allows a general progression of difficulty/learning curve for those of us that still need to grind our levels and arent looking for more challenges _just_ yet.

[blaah]

Originally Posted by aardnebb

these are the bits that are the issue, if I deathport, I dont level. A bit of wasted time, multiplied by hundreds of bagfuls = a cr*pton of wasted time.

hehe, now you gonna get "but dp goes in few pulls, so it's not a problem" replies ;-)

and yes, every time you die and need to work of dp, you do get mats, but you also get to dig less for xp because you bag will be full faster and then the cycle starts again.
ohh, and if the source happens to be next to tp (KP free _and_ aggro free dig near LoC kara), yeah, everyone is equally affected. i see it now.

[mugendo]

Originally Posted by grimjim

You already do have to join a faction, ours is called 'Neutral'.

'Ours' grimjim ?.....are you and your accomplices the epitomy of 'Neutral' ?...do you represent all neutral now ?....let me explain,

If somebody is Kami or Karavan it is clear where their allegiance lies to their diety.
A Neutral person has their own allegiances and agenda that does not conform to the two 'recognised' factions.
And now for the important difference.............a neutral person does not necessarily have the same allegiance and agenda as another neutral, also there is no common rally call or leader to follow.

Therefore they cannot be treated as a collective group all chasing the same dream.
And there lies the flaw if neutral were referred to as a faction.

[d29565]

*Ahem* Anyway, I would like to see kitin patrols back ingame.

I would also like to figure out how I end up on ignore lists, and I was also like to figure out why some many people complain so damn much. Oh, and I would like to see a thread stay on topic for more than a few posts.

[jared96]

Originally Posted by qurzo

To be honest I don't understand why some factioned players here starting to moan when somebody asks for tp's for neutrals in PR. Only argument i saw sofar that tp's don't make a big difference, if so why not giving them to neutrals also?

Simple.....if everyone has equal access at equal risk, then there's more competition for valuable materials. That means less for people who have a built in advantage that they understandably don't want to lose. It's not about looking at the situation and coming up with a reasonbale, fair solution; it's about picking what is best for the individual's own needs and then searching for as many ways as possible to justify it.

A lot of neutrals are solitary peeps quite happy to solo PR on their own. Making it harder for them to get there and making it a requirement that they bring like minded buddies would severely disadvanatge them leaving more "goodies" for faction peeps who more often travel in groups.

It must be recognized that the one thing most people love about Ryzom is that there are generally no penalties when making a choice. Fyros are not stronger at arms, Matis don't cast more powerful spells.....it's not impossible for a tryke to get a head shot in on a zora in a tourney caiuse we know they should never be able to reach.....making a character type choice in most games (i.e. paladin) means that that chacter will forever have advantages in some areas and be limited as to what they can accomplish in other areas. That ***IS*** Ryzom's uniqueness.....you can be whatever you want to be without penalty .... well except neutral.

The "you made a choice" banter is baseless. It's not you say ? .... Ok how's this....starting next patch kami diggers will have 30% less chance of blowing up while digging, and kara 30% more chance. Kami will pull 10% more mats and kara 10% less. Not fair ? Hey dude, why do ya think they call it "Kami Tolerance". Shouldn't the Kami be more tolerant of their own followers than the sons and daughters of Jena ? You made the choice dude, no one forced you to go kara.

In addition, kara get mechanical craft plans in my new patch.....trade ya apartment in for a sweatshop and drop off ya mats....kara technology will automate the process of crafting and even drop the grind items on the merchants for ya....no more standing around for hours doing clickety click. Oh you don't like that ? Hey, you chose to go kami ! No one forced you to do it.

Oh yeah, in my patch neutrals can go to the temple once a month and light a candle, drop a million in the donations box and get a "kami worshipper hat" that they can dig with for the month. Kami gods up in the clouds will treat you a kami for whole month. Neutrals also can go down to the union hall and buy H-1B visas that last a month. Drop a million into the kara "technological research fund" and be granted unlimited use of a kara sweathshop for a month.

Hey, it's my patch, I get to make the rules . It was done "tongue in cheek" on purpose but all the previous arguments have been addressed. It fits the lore, covers the "choice" thing but only when it had a disadvanatge to an individual does it "start to count". This patch has something to annoy everybody.

Again, it's not whether there is an advantage / disadvantage that bothers most people....not just in ryzom but life in general. If they have an advantage, most people are generally fine with it. When they see a disadvantage, as long as it doesn't generally affect them, most people are fine with it. It's only when a person is on the short end of an inequality do they complain about it. If ya need proof go to a little league game and watch the parents respond to a bad call. It's never about what happened, it's about how it affects little johhny's team that determines the reaction.

Finally, in this day and age of religious fundamentalists, terrorists, etc killing each other over which invisible man in the sky doesn't answer their prayers, is this context really a fertile ground for young developing minds ? Should there not be a reward system for people who choose peace and kindness to fellow man on purely ethical groinds over religious fantacism ?

But most importantly, let's not forget that the game just came out of receivership. The Ari server lost a significant portion of its members when factions were implemented. No doubt more PvP has brought some in but judging by in game indicators (i.e. /who and KT) it's quite obvious that there are not as many people in game as there once was.... yes we have seen a recent influx but we have not yet matched the peaks the game once had.

If we want to insure the viability of the game, it should be attractive to all types of players. A significant portion of the on line gaming community does not enjoy PvP. Just look at what's scehduled to be released. How's guild chat in your guild been this week ? How many of your peeps are off in Vanguard (PvE and PvP servers) and LOTR (no PvP). Why the Cho option was chosen by Nevrax instead of starting PvP / PvE servers I see as a missed opportunity.

There's an interesting viewpoint here:

http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/ind...lay&ceid= 229

So if we're stuck in a single server environment that "tries" to satisfy the PvP and the PvE player but puts one at a consistent advantage over the other, it would be naive not to expect those disadvantaged players to migrate to another game where they are not penalized for making an ethical choice. So shun each other's play styles, viewpoints and desires with caution. The viability of any game depends upon it attracting the widest audience it can. Let's not chase any group away.