Change of Policies: aggro dragging, spawn camping etc...

[fiach]

Originally Posted by danlufan

IN REPLY TO VALDA -

Just because aggro dragging hasnt happened to you, do you see it as a a policy? that should be allowed?

Yes it maybe 'war' but it is also a 'game', that 'people' 'pay' for and rules need to be instigated before alot of people get annoyed.

This is not about sides, this is not about kami/karavan or neutral, this is about the future of the game for the better, for the future of Ryzom.

And by the way, just because it can be done doesnt make it alright, for example; Just because you can punch someone in the face in real life, does it make it ok. Well it was a 'fight' so that must make it alright.

To be honest their are refs in 'war', you see it in real life, when America and British stand in to stop what is going on

1. If you read what I said, I dont like it, I would never do it, but there are tossers in every MMO, I just get on with my game.

To answer more fully, I do not think it should be allowed.

2. Yes its a game, but a PvP game, OP's are "wars", I dont really have any problems with the rules as they stand, I would prefer NOT to be camped or dragged upon, but as you say, its a game, I dont let it get to me.

3. As I said, Guilds should have more input in policing their members, I dont think a dev should get too involved in this sort of thing, the community is a mature one I trust their overall judgement and morality as opposed to a few tossers griefing people.

4. As I sad I dont think its right, I would never do it personally, but if you know who does it, then dont let them in your guilds, dont trade with them, let them become personae non grata, maybe they will leave.

5. Not wanting to get into a political discussion here, lets just say for the sake of argument the UN, its there to enforce different countries comply with a modicum of decency and it is a farce on a global scale, witness Bosnia, Rwanda, Liberia et al, referees aren't working in real life wars either. Please dont try to bring up UK and US involvement in conflict, I wont get into a discussion about them on a game forum, its too serious and has no place here.

Hope they give you a better idea on my thoughts

[ajsuk]

I don't much care either way about the aggro dragging as it's a non-DP environment, however, I'm completly against the other policies. (or rather against the lack of)

/sign

[fiach]

Originally Posted by blaah

you dont care about false declarations in a middle of the night, but how about your guild and supporters ?

No I dont, as I said, just last week I had to attend one, I answer for myself, my guild/supporters can answer for themselves, If I am asked to attend, I attend whenever I can.

[khyle]

Originally Posted by fiach

1. After reading your screenie, I can understand that I guess, but anyway, its a war, who needs a referee?

2. It never happened to me here, but its a legit tactic in other PvP games, some classes have skills, where you can drag aggro to another player, use the skill "feign death" and the mob transfers its attention to the nearest player. So I have no opinion other than I would never do it, someone killed my packer by digging beside it on purpose, I was annoyed, but hey, its a MMO game, all different types of players in it, good and bad, you have to put up with wankers in game and in real life.

3. Was a victim of this at 2 OP's recently, but it was an OP *war*, I didn't like it, I would never do it, but see 2 above.

4. Had to get up in the middle of the night to attend one last week, if you think something is worth fighting for, you do it. Its an international game, someone will always get screwed at OP's whether its just a ploy or not.




Well I would prefer if it didn't happen, but I guess its up to the guilds to try to enforce a code of conduct for their members, so that their actions are a reflection of the guilds and should be dealt with accordingly, If I had a guild and a member did those things, I would kick them. I edited out false declares as I dont care about them, If I have to attend an OP, then I do, regardless of the reason.

I dont agree, but I think guilds should martial their members better and be more careful as to who they recruit.

Absolutely! Even when I left for a year I kept my sub.

No, I dont want ANYONE to leave, but this game has a mature player base and they are very discerning, If they would leave over those instances you mention I would be surprised, because I have seen worse in other MMO's with larger player bases. I think the politics cause more people to leave than what you suggest, but thats just my opinion.

Quoted for emphasis.

I agree, if it's war, who needs a referee. I am no friend of PvP, and I wish Nevrax had never introduced it.
Still it is here, and the war is only at its beginning, some may remember there still is an all-out territorial expansion in the planning.
I have the hope that WE HOMINS can come to our senses and stop this on our own account. Just because the means are there, nobody is forced to use them! Matis, and Fyros, and Zoraï and Tryker, you all are warriors who know the meaning of honour - keep to it! If your enemy needs to use these tools, how much more powerful than them have you been? And how much more to be respected are you if you don't have to resort to the same tactics? Honour your opponent, and just don't do what you despise in others.
Remember there always has to be one side who lose, and losing is bitter. But losing with style is always more honourable than winning by dirty tricks. No battle for an outpost has to last until the last minute - if you feel cheated, leave. Without much shouting and name calling, just leave. And next time come back with twice the determination!

[meloner]

omg ! when did this happen ??!? This is crazy !

[komissar]

No one has been told when this happened for some reason...
Allthough the players deserve to know such things imho.

This is indeed crazy and we don't have the full list of "policy changes" either...

[gillest]

The first thing I would like to say is:

MARJO, wake up!!!!!

To which i would like to add that this is not the community that is going downhill, the is the game provider......
We are still mature enough to keep it fair most of the time..

Now I would not say the same about GF, their policy changes and the implementation...
I have complained a lil in the past about lack of communication but now is starting to be a pure and simple JOKE

- New features/policies not even announced.
- Patch retropatched without a single communication about the why and what was modified...
- We even lucky somehow that we know when its patched.
- In development section of the site not even sorted properly:"now worries, they don't read anyway, just throw ur news in middle of old nevrax ones is ok" (must be what they think).
- Q&A have to be pushed down the throat of GF by Aniro players in order to actually get communication.....
I will let you guys continue the list...
*****
The second thing I would like to say is that I do not blame/critic any of the CSR's for that, neither do I blame the one time when some where suspected...
We are all only paying the consequences of GF decisions, not the consequences of our actions....
This is for me again proof that GF does not understand anything about MMO's..

1- Take down professional CSR team as it cost money (ok fair enough but was maybe not thought deeply).
2- Let 99% of it been handle by players (without think about how to control it).
3- Let "it" hit the fan ... (mishandling od CSR instructions, petition, GF France wakes up and think about controlling: littel too late imo).
4- Implementation of new rules for CSR, some of which affect players and gameplay (SHHHH, DON'T tell the players, they will disacover soon enough)...
5- now those new rules, CSR can't attend OP and the rest....

Sounds to me like:

- "Bha, our promisses of mean of control are as bug as all our patches and doesnt work...."
- "What we do?"
- "Bhaa whatever, just take some more powers away from CSR's and let the players do what they want, what do we care anyway".....

So for me, the way communication and implementation have been handle since January is PURELY SCANDALOUS!!!!!

So yes, I will continue dig my nodes in hope that our lovely community will be more grown up and more caring for ourselves than GF/Nevrax Fr does for us....

And: don t expect a smiley on this post GF: I am in Mourning of my Hopes...

/mode shout loudly on
MARJO...........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stijn]

I think they made these changes cause of the problems with the gms earlier this year... (the petition remember...).

And those false declarations are a pain, and shouldnt be allowed. But the aggro dragging, pff dunno, every one uses the mobs to his/her advantage (eg: attacking from inside a plod spawn) thats not aggro dragging, but still causes a lot of problems... And tbh, I think most of the draggin is unintentional, caused by people running in later. I've been to most major attacks lately, and never seen aggro draggers.
Also the spawn camping is unknown to me... Altho I can understand that it happens sometimes where the spawn point is very close to the op (eg. Malmont) You step out of the op and you are practicly at the spawnpoint... If you chase those last surviving homins, you suddenly become a "spawn camper"...
Well that said I dont approve any of these tactics but it happens sooner then you expect (imo)

[mugendo]

A curious development in the direction of Ryzom....

First I am quite surprised to recieve the impression that the monitoring of the playerbase will be significantly reduced......except for Universal channel chat I assume.

In a way I am pleased to know that GF trust the playerbase enough to self moderate...except for Universal channel chat I assume.
But there is several points that GF must acknowledge, PvP and RP are two seperate beasts...as Grimjim pointed out many moons ago....One is community building...the other is community conflict. I will not insult the intelligence of anyone here by pointing out which pairs match.

Anyway......in my opinion I find that in war any rules are there to be manipulated, ignored, abused.....Rules are the burden my opponent can carry if they wish . Further to this I see any valid tactic...such as Aggro Dragging, AFK killing, Intimidation, sleep deprivation, frustration......well the list is endless in 'weapons' of war.

Of course this behaviour on my part brings with it consequences....
The most obvious is the reputation I will gain......(insert own name for me here).....but my online alter ego and GF enforced policies saves me from a lot of these.....remember the universal channel is for Q&A only....and this will remain enforced by a full complement of GF crs's to protect me .

Oh, and for those that believe Atys is a warzone.....it's populated with a LOT of collaterals.......

So to those who anticipate a war of the community, I think you may be right.....but I can announce now that once Atys has imploded on itself and GF are left with an empty shell populated by 'winners'......the empty world will enable them to release some csr from the universal channel monitoring.

In summary,
Let a mob rule itself.....and you have mob rule......simple as that.

[gcaldani]

I already posted my opinion in external forums and i also pm'ed Androbia to point out my opinion:

I agree with Androbia that decided to maintain some rule, altough it would be difficult go against GF decisions. My opinion is:

1. changing rules because a single homin petitioned into an external site it really dangerous. Gf should understand that this behaviour wil simply allow everyone in the game try to disrupt rules just petition here and there...

2. altough GF manage a very big community around his web browser games, it seems to me that he has a little knowledge of online mmo communities.

What GF should have done is silently taking investigations and eventually do appropriate actions (if needed). Not changing rules that whole community agreed to build around the OP wars.

Also i can easy tell that every rule that need 'human' supervision is subject to whining and breaks. Everyone that has a decent knoledge of online gaming knows that 'admins' and 'csr' are often 'hated' (tho they could think they have many friends...) because they have 'power', something that many players wish to have, regardless of the game rules.

In my opinion, the Androbia decision, is very correct and polite: leave rules as they were. But, at the same time i say: we have to find a way to have OP wars less subject to whining and complaints, so basically we need a better mechanic around it.

As a simple example:

spawn camping is a bad behaviour? Okay, let have the OP flag instantly turned off outside the OP area. Increase the area to fit better the guards spots. Spawn camping no more possible. Resolved.
This will change strategies? Good, some new things players have to work on.

Aggro dragging is a bad behavior? This statement could be discussed for much time without reaching a point (mobs are part of the environment and cannot be removed just because we want an OP battle). Also this could be done by both sides.... Anyway a possible solution is to have mobs losing aggro very fast near the OP area, so it would be very difficult to drag (i remember one time i tried to pull Dolak into an OP to be able to kill it alone and spent al lot of time trying to do cause Dolak's dumb head don't want to follow me and the OP was far).

These are just examples on how devs could change the OP war mechanic so to avoid any whining at csr, more they really would not need to watch.

Of course all of you can write many other ideas (simple ideas would be better) to have a real solution.

Last example:

False declarations are annoying? A possible solution, that also would be useful for other aspects of the game:

a very high price for the declare. If you think any price would be useless brecause of 'inflactioned' dappers, then:

introduce upkeeps for OP and for GH. Not high for GH but very high for OP.
I mean, a monthly upkeep of 20 million dappers for a lower Op till 70-80 million dappers for the highest, would change the economy in a way that people will start to really sell stuff, gouing to harvest and quarter to be able to pay the upkeep or it will stop producing anything.
In few months, after people very rich now have spent their dappers (if not already spent at jackpot, right Neva? ), sure we'll reach a balance.

Another way (but i don't like much) is to have fixed timing, ie: u can declare one op each 7 days.

Only in this way we resolve the whining around, not changing rules because a single player posted a petition against csr. Basically we will be allowed to do what the game mechaning give us.

Personally Androbia will have my full support for his decision, hoping GF will start considering how is dangerous allowing everyone to think they can disrupt something just petitioning around the net.